Lord or Tyrant?

[Elf Witch]

The problem I have with the situation is that the adventurers are (supposedly) there to help with the vampire problem. The captain of the guards acted like he didn't want their help and he wanted them all to leave. If I was in a situation like that I'm not sure I would stick around. The priestess identified the person they were shooting at as a friend, and they should have trusted her since she had been helping them fight against the vampires.

That said, the justification was a bit (unbearably) arrogant. High level doesn't automatically mean that they don't have to treat people with respect.

I didn't read it like that at all. I read that they saw a misty figure and fired on it, which I can really see them doing. I am sure they are trigger happy who wouldn't be in this situation.

The cleric runs up tells them to stop firing which they do and then she bereates them for what they did. She got up in their face and one of the milita got right back in her face.

Then the other pC comes racing out he could have tried to cool the situation but instead he also starts to berate and throw his weight around demanding respect.

Respect is a two way street these men are risking their lives to protect the keep it seems to me since the pCs are strangers they should go out of their way to cut these men some slack.

Granted it is a valid way to choose to play characters if you choose to play them as arrogant I have played my share of bossy arrogant characters, but if you do you have to also expect that NPCs are not going to respond well and may choose to hide rather than help you in a fight.

 

[Madefromletters]

A reasonable point of view.

More importantly, the players are treating the militia as game pieces or at best servants to be ordered about.

The DM, instead, is doing his job and playing them as self-aware, average intelligence, inexperienced people.

Your village has been destroyed by strange magical creatures of darkness and fear. While your leaders are gone, a misty creature comes flying right at the battlements! Whaddya do? Umm, fire silver arrows!

The sheriff of what remains of your little fantasy Wild West town is assaulted by the vigilantes for "not showing enough respect". Do you:
a) "I, for welcome our new overlords." Cooperated fully and grovel at lot to their exaultedness, giving your meagre lives to protect them.
b) Grumble, sulk, and hope the new bad guys get and the old bad guys kill each other off and leave you alone.

Treat NPCs are people . . . the DM here obviously does.

Hi im Madefromletters the GM for the game. The above quote is how i saw it.

I thought to myself, should i let it slide and move on to the actual prepared adventure of killing the undead source of Doooom or see what happens if we give certain people certain personalities (which i made up in about 2 seconds, cause as someone said in an earlier post, i see this as a time to play my NPC characters as real people with flaws and strengths. Im not a computer and personally the only reason pen and paper is worth playing is cause of the random factor that a computer rpg just cant give)

Situation: So the guy playing the priest had mentioned that you look like a cloud when wearing white and wind walking.... so being that the 15ish guards left to hunker down for about 2 days while their leaders go off and talk to potential allies crapped themselves when they saw what they thought were vampires. It was midday too so confussion iand fear mixed create for stupid decession.

the firing of arrows happens then the priestess gives the leader a talking too. We did oppossed intimidate checks which the guard won. The guards had finished firing as the leader was in an argument with the priestess. He is freaked out and on edge as they fear for their lifes, undead zombies are wondering around in the destroyed town and it is a cold cold winters day. So then this big guy wearing full plate and carrying a shield that looks like a rock and has about 5 swords threatens his life. The leader is flustered (so is the GM, what do i do i say to myself. I know be a defiant LN to the letter of law type of guy as that is the alignment of main religion in the area). He is then made to dual and as he cant turn down such a request for honour he say something along the lines of "i will do so but i know i cant win so you know this is murder"

he gets smashed the other guards refuse any help from the PCs and won't talk to them either as they feel they have no safe place while they are around. They have to decide to wait for their leaders or make a run for it during the daylight hours towards the boarder were they should be safe with the other refugees.
That is of course for next weeks game and i will decide when i decide.

These little issues give the game world more life and make it more real i think.

 

[kigmatzomat]

The difference between a hero and a villain is wisdom and respect for people. Your characters aren't showing any wisdom or respect. As far as the "common knowledge of wind walk" fine and dandy in your campaign, but in a vampire-ridden area using that windwalk to appear in the middle of an armed base is as bad as a spell that gives you fangs!

Let's face it, the guy who appeared could be your buddy but he could now be a vampire where he wasn't before. That's what vampires do, turn people and use the existing relationships to gain access to everyone. Your priestess could have tried a turning to demonstrate that the windwalker was not a vampire but instead she starting yelling at people.

Any cleric capable of casting Wind Walk should be bright enough to know that people terrified of vampires are going to shoot first, ask question second. Furthermore, any cleric capable of casting Wind Walk can also cast Sending and warn people he's coming. Last of all, a cleric of a level to cast Wind Walk should have the diplomacy to follow reasonable security precautions.

The guards should react when people bypass the normal security protocols. Given the power of vampires, they should do so rather decisively. Those protocols are to protect the people and the rightful authorities. If your characters have not been officially added to the chain of command, they are not to be obeyed!

Power your characters have. But authority is separate from power. There's lots of relatively low-ranked individuals who operate tanks and gunships IRL that have power but not a whole lot of authority. Even your priests may not have much authority if they don't play according to the church policy. Until an existing, recognized authority brings you into the chain, you are a dangerous wild card.

Respect is separate from authority or power. There's an old saw that goes "you have to give respect before you earn it." People may fear you or respect your power but personal respect requires demonstrating judgement. In all honesty, the priestess and your character should have been berating your idiot teammate for scaring the locals. That would have demonstrated that you understand the situation and the rational response of the militia.

Authority can come from respect. If you demonstrate that you have good judgement, understand the needs of the community and show the proper deference to the existing power structure then you may be given authority by the locals.

If I were the commander of the guard I'd be writing very diplomatically worded letters to the nearest bishop-equivalent of the party cleric & priestess's church(es). Right now your characters are even less socially adapted than the Special Fathers on Cartoon Network's "Lucy, Daughter of the Devil" and they have a nun assassin who has a penchant for stabbing people and blowing up things.

 

[haakon1]

he gets smashed the other guards refuse any help from the PCs and won't talk to them either as they feel they have no safe place while they are around. They have to decide to wait for their leaders or make a run for it during the daylight hours towards the boarder were they should be safe with the other refugees.
That is of course for next weeks game and i will decide when i decide.

These little issues give the game world more life and make it more real i think.

I think it makes the campaign a LOT more interesting, as a DM and as a player to put depth into characterizations of the minor NPC's like this. I really like the sound of your campaign, BTW. The setting sounds cool. As a player, I've often been trapped in endless dungeon crawl land, which annoys me because there doesn't seem to be a larger point to it. Having NPCs -- even ungrateful ones -- to defend and protect makes the game more interesting, less "gameish", and more heroic for me.

Anyhow, I would consider giving the PC's a break in this situation. Maybe do some random determination of stats and alignment on the remaining militia. Perhaps a smarter/wiser good one will try to be a peacemaker. The scenario I'd come with up is that the boss, having been humiliated, gets drunk and goes to sleep it off. The second in command, or another smart/wise and/or good type comes to the least aggressive/most friendly of the PC's (mage or rogue? probably not the cleric given the history here) and tries to work things out. Maybe apologizes about the accidental friendly fire first.

You could later on have some conflict between the militia folks about whether to stay and hold or abandon the base and make a run for it. Normally, as a DM, I'd give wilderness camping in this cold of winter surrounded by undead a very low survival probability, but you never know. For the NPC militiamen, unreasoned fear may need some convincing to stop it.

Also, it would be REALLY fun at some point for the baddies to run an assault on the fortress. I did that with Keep on the Borderlands, and it was the best fight we ever did. With only 15 NPC defenders of relatively low level, you could play the whole thing out, if you were so inclined.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

Your thoughts?

Someone pushes you, you push back, or they knock you down and walk on your face. It is as simple as that. It sounds like the DM set the ball rolling and is disappointed at not being able to use and abuse at will, while the players are willingly exacerbating the situation.

I would leave the group.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Ok, I’ll clarify a bit more of the situation as I saw it, and then outline what I see as the broader debate. (Madewithletters is the GM, and his view is an accurate account of one side of the debate.)

Our PC’s are the guests within the keep, that is true. So we should be turfed out on our butts, like we have been in the past. However we are the only effective force at hands that can, will and have taken the fight right to the Vampires. The local Lords failed to protect the townsfolk except to get the majority of them to flee as refugees.

Our PC’s definitely are not mercenaries. Wealth serves as a secondary/tertiary goal for all of them. Priest lives to test his strength in combat and smith mighty weapons and armours. Maugrim fights to vanquish evil and accumulate prestige and estates. Grenwyn performs crop-enriching ceremonies, battles the minions of darkness, and adores Maugrim. Kali hones her magics to grow in power and reinforce her independence. Wealth alone will not tempt these characters.

Priest and Maugrim did quietly debate the wisdom of Priest using powerful magic in front of the militiamen. They both agreed it wasn’t the best decision but Priest was in a hurry to return to the party before nightfall, so we could attack the vampires. The mist during the day did cause confusion.

Grenwyn’s outburst at the militiaman was in response to Priest (who she considers to be more the heroic cleric she wishes she could be) being slightly injured. It was harsh on the militiaman, but hey, she’d do that.

Maugrim is not self-proclaimed. He is born nobility, has 50+ followers, a knighthood, a stronghold, 200+ Gnomish allies, good charisma (16), and loyally serves his Queen. Priest has a reputation more as a foe-slayer than as a lord, but Maugrim definitely lays claim to Lordship without thought. In his birth lands, he didn’t take lip from militiamen even when he was 4th level.

Maugrim did not give the militiaman much respect as what he saw was his loyal follower getting ripped into by a lesser in terms of: social status, spiritual status, and combat prowess. Maugrim may have done the same on grounds of gender alone.

The duel was a farce. Maugrim didn’t take any pride in that and felt rather foolish afterwards. I think he regrets challenging a lesser to a duel – there has to be something comparative for it to have meaning.

Maugrim did try to command respect via diplomacy, but the surly militiamen needed to be constantly reasoned with to get the simplest of aid, such as opening the gate or sharing the armoury. Eventually diplomacy failed and so he got heavy handed. I think they were so lippy because they knew of his reputation for not shedding blood unless he has to defend himself. Ironically, if he was a CN Half-Orc Barbarian he would have got more respect. Of course he’d definitely be a tyrant – no ifs or buts there.

The heroes likely won’t leave the militia to their fate. They agreed with the local lords to return the favour and as they’re able to they will. Although to be clear the local lords merely outfitted the heroes in mundane gear until they were able to retrieve their real gear. The heroes repayment is at least 50 times more difficult. One of the vampires is the 3rd local lord, another is the former head of the militia, and a 3rd is a senior Cleric. Their leader is a much more powerful fallen hero from old and their undead horde roams for miles in all directions.

The greater debate is about social-power relations. Yes a player may get drunk with power as their PC enters high level, but also what about deference? High level PC’s leave in their wake many quests and reputations. Surely that would affect how they’re treated? DM’s need to make the social transition to high level as well. If low level NPCs treat the high level PCs as equals, doesn’t that ignore campaign developments and social status?

 

[Elf Witch]

The greater debate is about social-power relations. Yes a player may get drunk with power as their PC enters high level, but also what about deference? High level PC’s leave in their wake many quests and reputations. Surely that would affect how they’re treated? DM’s need to make the social transition to high level as well. If low level NPCs treat the high level PCs as equals, doesn’t that ignore campaign developments and social status?

I think it depends on how the PCs act on how they are treated. Sure the fact that they are legends may get their foot in the door and may cause others to be willing to give them respect at first. But if they abuse it by lording their power over other people then people may fear them but they don't respect them.

I was not at your gaming table so I don't know who is more clear about what happened. But I will say this if I was DMing and a heavy armored fighter came and started yelling at a gaurd who was in an already heated discussion with another member of the party I would have made the guards view the party in an unfavorable light. The cleric who cast wind walk was in the wrong he should have realized how it could be seen and he should have taken steps to prevent what happened.

The other cleric should have tried to defuse the situation instead of getting in a pissing contest with the guard and when your high born high level lord came out he should have tried to smooth all the ruffled feathers.

There were four characters acting up the two clerics, the guard and you.


And the duel was way over the top why on earth would you as a noble born high level lord issue what was a no win situation for the guard. The guard showed more honor than you did over that because he accepted knowing that he could not win and he was right if you had killed him it would have been a form of murder.

I think what happened was bad on everyone both players and DM. If the players have a reputation for being good and helping and are not behaving like rude jerks then yes the DM should make the NPCs more polite and more respectful ,but if the players are going to go around yelling and taking to task guards who are trying to protect their keep and doing actions that are going to put the guards on edge and take no responsibility for that and then a high level fighter challenge a guard to a duel that he has no way in winning I think you should expect that they will not look at you with anything more than fear and resentment.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Maugrim is not self-proclaimed. He is born nobility, has 50+ followers, a knighthood, a stronghold, 200+ Gnomish allies, good charisma (16), and loyally serves his Queen. Priest has a reputation more as a foe-slayer than as a lord, but Maugrim definitely lays claim to Lordship without thought. In his birth lands, he didn’t take lip from militiamen even when he was 4th level.

But he's not in his birth lands now is he? Nor is he in his stronghold, leading his followers or doing anything but proclaiming himself. In this situation he is a self proclaimed lord with nothing to back it up but his arrogance and willingness to attack people who "give him lip" by doing their jobs and obeying their own chain of command. If being treated as a lord was important to him, he should have arranged that with the actual lords when coming to the keep in the first place. Obviously he didn't, because when the real lords left, they didn't even think to leave any special instructions if you came back before they did.

As was pointed out by others, he could have defused the situation (as could the priestess) and instead chose to escalate it. If he actually has the skills of a lord, he chose not to use them, and chose the skills of a tyrant instead.

As for high level PCs gaining prestige, within a geographical area that's certainly possible, but we are not talking about the age of mass media here. Even if these people have heard of you, it's unlikely they've ever seen a picture and perfectly likely that they've heard of or expereinced people laying claim to deeds not theirs. Anyone can say "we did such and such" just as anyone can say "I am a LORD, you insolent whelp! Do as I say or I'll hit you!"

If you have ranks in diplomacy and secondarily Know : nobility and royalty, I suggest making a point when entering new situations of establishing yourself as a peer* of the highest ranked person there (in this case the lords) and then expecting deference. But taking that welcome for granted makes your character look, at best, like a spoiled noble brat, and at worst a tyrant in the making.

*an actual lord would know to always defer to the local lord even if his rank at home is greater.

Maugrim did try to command respect via diplomacy, but the surly militiamen needed to be constantly reasoned with to get the simplest of aid, such as opening the gate or sharing the armoury. Eventually diplomacy failed and so he got heavy handed. I think they were so lippy because they knew of his reputation for not shedding blood unless he has to defend himself. Ironically, if he was a CN Half-Orc Barbarian he would have got more respect. Of course he’d definitely be a tyrant – no ifs or buts there.

I'm willing to take your DM's word on the npc reasoning actually. You are accusing the npcs of being bullies, but every account indicated that you were the ones bullying.

Before you tried to "command respect" via diplomacy, did you try to secure cooperation that way? If you had not been welcomed as a lord and accepted as that before you left, the lordly response would have been to treat the current head of the keep as a peer. Trying to seize command was a bad idea. If you were in charge of the keep and a 20th level adventurer who was KING in his land showed up and assumed that he was in charge of you, how would you respond? Badly I imagine. Maybe you would have been beaten as an insolent whelp. I can just imagine the thread we'd be reading then.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Reading the follow ups it looks like the party might be lords but they have yet to demonstrate any nobility.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I have to agree with Kahuna Burger here.

Did the captain of the milita ask you to help in the first place? You asked for hospitality in exchange for helping the town. Hospitality to me means they offer you a place to stay and food and drink. It does not automatically mean you get to take what you need from the armory, command the troops etc. If you worked an arrangement with the local leaders to do so, then circumstances might be different.

Ever work in a place where you came in as a Manager and found that one of the people reporting to you applied for the Manager position, was turned down and as a result is not very happy about you arriving on the scene? I see this situation as being similar. Sure the milita needs your strength, but that does not mean they would be happy about it. You need to win over the milita, not beat them into submission, if you want respect.

My opinion is that your PCs acted like Lords, since many Lords behave with the sense of entitlement your PCs seem to have. The problem is that you didn't act like Leaders, which is very different than being a Lord.