Lords of Dust vs. Daelkyr

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by davethebrave371:

I wasn't sure whether to plop this in Running Eberron or Eberron Lore, but I'll plop it here.

How do people see these two villainous orgs/forces interacting with each other, both in general and in extreme situations on either end of a spectrum of alliance/conflict?

For example, the Cults of the Dragon Below seem to be over 50% (how much over 50% is debatable) Daelkyr worshippers, with a sizable chunk remaining for those who follow a/the Lord(s) of Dust, and a slightly smaller chunk for a Rajah's prakhtu or a Rajah directly, and the smallest for Khyber herself. However, all taken together, I personally think (and again, it's debatable) that it's probably somewhere close to 40%ish, with Daelkyr worshippers taking up 60%ish of the Cults of the Dragon Below.

But what does any of that mean, in regards to interactions between the trapped (but not generally bound) Daelkyr who could interact with the living and unbound minions of the Rajahs/Khyber directly down in Khyber? How much to the Daelkyr know about the history stretching back to the Age of Demons, and of the LoD themselves? What do the LoD think of these other trapped beings taking worshippers and minions and fodder (and vice-versa)? It seems like it has the potential to be extremely complex, even with Cults of the Dragon Below issues aside.

Thoughts?

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by ellorin:

I do not think that cooperation is to be expected. They all covet the ultimate prize-breaking the forces that keep them (or their masters in the case of their servants)bound in Khyber and conquering the entire world but their goals what happens next are very different-the Lords of Dust wish to bring back their hellish rule whereas the Daelkyr are interested in corrupting and ultimately destroying the entire world.

Now, some of their mortal followers might think that they could work together in the short term against common foes such as the gatekeepers, the worshipers of the Flame or the Light of Siberys but I do not think that their monstrous superiors would be happy about that. Any such attempts would probably lead to a lot of backstabbing and executions.

Not exactly on topic but one of my hypotheses concerning the Day of Mourning was that a daelkyr attempted to devour a Rajah's essence or the opposite...the results were catastrophic and led to the creation of the Mournland. In this scenario the effects of the Mournland extend to certain parts of Khyber.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by tallric_kruush:

But what does any of that mean, in regards to interactions between the trapped (but not generally bound) Daelkyr who could interact with the living and unbound minions of the Rajahs/Khyber directly down in Khyber?

I don't think there would be much overlap, honestly. I believe either type of superpowerful being would be willing to use any mortal for a given time. I think the Daelkyr would quickly twist such a mortal to his own service, or else cast the mortal aside.

The Lords of Dust would likewise probably try to redirect the mortals efforts, but would likely be more content to allow a mortal servant to believe he/she is serving another "god/entity" altogether. The Lords of Dust probably don't care whom you think you serve, as long as your actions serve their purposes. (I realize the Lords of Dust are themselves servants of the bound rajahs, but I'll use the name for the purpose of this discussion). Perhaps the Daelkyr would approach it this way, as well, but I think they'd be less inclined to manipulate, and more inclined to simply compel a mortal to serve them directly.

How much to the Daelkyr know about the history stretching back to the Age of Demons, and of the LoD themselves? What do the LoD think of these other trapped beings taking worshippers and minions and fodder (and vice-versa)? It seems like it has the potential to be extremely complex, even with Cults of the Dragon Below issues aside.

I imagine the Daelkyr would know quite a bit, seeing as they've been trapped within Khyber themselves for thousands of years. Whether they actually care, though, is another thing. Typically, I'd expect neither collaboration nor conflict between the two groups. They simply have such disparate goals, as Ellorin said, that I don't see such interactions being common.

I think each group can find plenty of mortal servants with fighting over them. I also think they frequently value different qualities and backgrounds in their servants, as well. Likewise, I'd expect different types to be attracted to the service of each, though "power hungry" likely describes them all. The Daelkyr and Lords of Dust may not be picking from the same bunch very frequently.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Alex_:

"Cults of the Dragon Below" is just a classification of convenience.

There's no real organization/communication/cooperation amongst different congregations that follow the same entity, let alone those that follow different Daelkyr or between one that followers a specific Daelkyr and another that follows a Rajah. Some don't even follow a Daelkyr or Rajah. They may just be following some Mindflayer or Bebelith. Anything more powerful than them that can corrupt.

Yes, both the Rajahs and Daelkyr happen to be trapped in Khyber, but they're trapped underground in totally different places. The Rajahs are hidden across Eberron itself, and can be found even in Xen'drik and Sarlona, unlike the Daelkyr which are mostly confined to Khorvaire in the Shadow Marches, Droaam, and Breland regions.

A Cult of the Dragon Below dedicated to the Abiding Scar (currently under Stomreach)would consist of a bunch of random people who have succumbed to the maddening influence of the Abiding Scar. They'd gather in secret and follow what this mysterious power of evil and betrayal suggests via whispers in their dreams and subconscious. Otherwise, they know next to nothing about this entity, let alone other Rajahs and even more unlikely, the Daelkyr. Not very many fiends amongst their numbers. Mostly locals of random races and backgrounds.

The Lords of Dust are something completely different. The Lords of Dust is an organization from the Demon Wastes led by fiendish beings who work to unleash the Rajahs themselves. They remember the Scar That Abides before he was even sealed away and have been keeping tabs on him ever since. They don't follow the Scar the Abides specifically as much as they follow the greater council back in the Demon Wastes. They have an actual plan for not only him, but all the other Rajahs, and the Dragons and Couatls as well, which involves intricate plots intended to manipulate the Prophecy. Their members are almost entirely fiends, individuals who have made contact and have relationships with fiends, or their puppets.

I can see the Lords of Dust manipulating Cults of the Dragon Below that are unknowingly worshipping a Rajah if they believe they can be useful in better understanding or manipulating the prophecy. Giving the cult more information regarding the history of this entity they've been serving, or claiming to be an ally or champion of this entity, and as such, worthy of their allegiance.

I wouldn't expect a member of the Lords of Dust to have much to do with Cults of the Dragon Below as they related to the Daelkyr. The Daelkyr are confined to a much smaller region- regions where no Rajahs are suggested to be bound- and they seem to have no interest in the Prophecy. Their followers merely follow them and their twisted goals with little regard for anyone who stands in their way.

People just say Cults of the Dragon Below, because all these forces are somehow related to Khyber and they couldn't tell one from another to save their life. If people did understand the difference, they would describe them separately as Fiend worshiping and Aberration worshiping faiths.

That's how I run it at least.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Nived:

I once made this comparison. The Demon Overlords were locked in the basement by their roommates. After a long time being stuck down there an bunch of arsonists tried to burn down the house but ended up getting locked in the basement with them.

There's no reason to expect they'd get along. One side wants the house that's rightfully theirs, the other group wants to burn it down.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

I once made this comparison. The Demon Overlords were locked in the basement by their roommates. After a long time being stuck down there an bunch of arsonists tried to burn down the house but ended up getting locked in the basement with them.

I like it.


Originally posted by eehamburg:

I like it.

So few words ... and yet it speaks volumes!

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by davethebrave371:

Good responses, but the Cults of the Dragon Below was sort of an example of where they bleed together to a degree, not some question of some overcult that would unite other cults or anything like that.

One point I think I would disagree with is tallric_kruush's point about whether or not they'd care, and how there'd be neither conflict nor collaboration.

I definitely see either of them trying to manipulate the causes of the other, which isn't military conflict, but it's certainly conflict. And as to collaboration, if there was some way for all the Rajahs to break free only with the assistance of all the Daelkyr (who would then be set free), would the Lords of Dust consider it? What reasons would be on the pro, and what on the con? What do you think they'd ultimately decide in Ashtakala? And same for the Daelkyr. Would it be worth it to free all the Rajahs, considering their power? Probably not, I'd think. But if they had to free two? Three? Five? When would it stop being worth it to free every Daelkyr? And what do people think the prakhtus of the various Rajahs think of the Daelkyr, on a big picture level, and vice versa?

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Gurv:

As is almost always the case when discussing the motives of beings who are the immortal personifications of abstract concepts, understanding may be beyond the hopes of mortals.

The Rajahs are certainly interested in freedom. But they are immortal. They were thousands (if not millions) of years old even before they were even imprisoned by the couatl. They all have plans for escape that have been in motion for longer than humans have been forming complete sentences. The daelkyr invasion is a very recent event when laid next to that. I don't doubt a Rajah's ability to take advantage of a sudden development. But I question whether any would alter course drastically. Some might add the daelkyr and their followers to a plan already in motion, but none would throw away that plan, or risk its success on something so volatile as the Lords of Madness.

That said, I was also under the impression that the Rajahs were not quite lucid. Obviously, a mind as vast as a Rajah's can do more in a coma than a man's could do on his best day. But a slumbering mind isn't as keen, isn't as able to react quickly, and perceives things poorly sometimes.

As for the daelkyr themselves, I imagine the mind of a Rajah is an open book compared to what you would find if you tried to understand their motives. They are insane. I don't think that they can "interact" with anyone. Spend a couple of minutes in the vicinity of one and you won't be able to interact with yourself, let alone form a cooperative with other rational beings. It isn't that the daelkyr are opposed to the rakshasa...its just that purple ate the tower screaming isn't a diplomatic strategy that can work.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

The Rajahs are certainly interested in freedom. But they are immortal. They were thousands (if not millions) of years old even before they were even imprisoned by the couatl. They all have plans for escape that have been in motion for longer than humans have been forming complete sentences. The daelkyr invasion is a very recent event when laid next to that. I don't doubt a Rajah's ability to take advantage of a sudden development. But I question whether any would alter course drastically.

Good points. The key thing as I see it is that there is no Universal Plan For Overlord Freedom. It's not as simple as destroying a Gatekeeper seal. Freeing an Overlord is a matter of manipulating the Prophecy in a certain direction - which is why it's taken the Lords of Dust tens of thousands of years to do. They CAN'T rush it. If Eldrantulku can only be freed when the firstborn son of Merrix d'Cannith (and does that mean a human child, or his first warforged creation?) slays the Last King of Breland at a specific battlefield in a specific year, then they've got to set all those things in motion. They have to make sure there IS a Merrix d'Cannith. They have to create tensions between dragonmarked houses and Breland to drive for battle between them - or otherwise engineer circumstances so one will kill the other at that specific place. Meanwhile, Katashka the Gatekeeper may only be freed when the Queen of the Dead restores the Lost Mark only to fall at the hand of the greatest child of the Line of Life (House Jorasco? The Undying Court?). The agents of Katashka may have thus been responsible for the original conflict between the line of Vol and Argonnessen, needing Erandis to be created, to have the mark BE lost, and even now they have an interest both in Vol regaining her mark and in helping the PCs defeat her... so that an even greater terror can rise from the ashes of her defeat.

The first point is that there's no overall plan for the Lords of Dust, because each have very different paths to follow. The second is that it's entirely possible that the arrival/defeat/release of the daelkyr may be PART of one or more of their plans. The Voice In The Darkness is an Overlord of Madness herself, and as such it's quite possible that the actions of the daelkyr are tied to her release. So a servant of Katashka might consider the daelkyr to be foul interlopers that will be destroyed when his Overlord rises; while a servant of the Voice In The Darkness may consider that daelkyr to be both useful tools and things of beauty reflecting the visions of her Mistress.

With all that said, if you want a truly epic threat, it's always possible to say that one overlord can release another... though luckily for the world, this didn't happen when the Shadow in the Flame was unleashed in Thrane centuries ago.

Another side point is that human/goblin/elf civilization didn't even exist when the Overlords walked the world. As such, they have no attachment to it, and it makes little difference to them if the daelkyr destroy it before the Overlords return. It's entirely possible that it's REQUIRED for their release; the Rage of War could be released when a third great empire falls; the giants were number one, the Dhakaani were number two, and now it's humanity in Riedra or Khorvaire that have to go.


Originally posted by Hellcow:

It isn't that the daelkyr are opposed to the rakshasa...its just that purple ate the tower screaming isn't a diplomatic strategy that can work.

Indeed. I think it's more likely that a Lord of Dust would assist the daelkyr in secret than actually engage in diplomatic relations with them. There's no reason a rakshasa can't appear to be, say, a mind flay - so what APPEARS to be a daelkyr cult (even to its members) could actually be serving the interests of both daelkyr AND LoD.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by RedRider:

Regarding the prophecy, it was always my assumption that these bizzare mystic events that lead up to a Rajah being released were issues of causation.
(The first Warforged offs Boranel, leading to extreme ostracisation of the constructs which drives the majority into the clutched of the LoD who now have the ten thousand vessels they need for the Rage of War or to nail down the dispersed Rajah, He Who Walks, into one place.)
But now I'm wondering if the prophecy itself is the padlock on the prison.

As in, the progenitors (or the gods or the earliest dragons) were able to make bindings from Couatl souls and forge a lock from destiny to bring about the sealing of the Rajah.
The specific events called for in the prophecy could be the direct cause of the Rajah's release as they break that little part in the prophecy which holds him there.
(Perhaps the prophecy lock is a necessary flaw or perhaps they decided they may need a few beings of incalculable power if Azathoth or Galactus ever show up.)
Under this model, as soon as Boranel croaks, the Rajah is free. No need for a big ritual or artifact sundering or anything.

Though this is something of an attempt for myself to nudge out my sense of causation for magical worlds.