Loss of Ki - More Harm Than Good?

[samursus]

While you make an interesting case (OP), I respectfully disagree.

1) Wizards has flat out said (and Amazon rankings agree) that each PHB sold less than the previous. Partially because some of the retailers had problems determining which books they needed to stock. eg: is PHB3 the newest version and therefore 1&2 are obsolete?

2) While the reasons for the dropping of the Ki and Elemental sources are debatable, it does have a logic that I can see. I, for one, have 0 interest in an PHB4 that is really 4e Oriental Adventures... which leads to:

3) The class ideas were getting very niche-tastic. Many have already complained that 4e is suffering from option bloat/paralysis. One can forget that those of us who post on these boards are the vocal minority. And even among said demographic, we rarely agree on what the game needs.

I don't doubt that from your perspective WotC messed up majorly, (I see a lot of these threads) but they are in the business of keeping the business alive. We armchair CEO's seem to have flawless insight and vision when it comes to what we want, but Wizards has to deal with reality: try to sell products to as many of a diverse customer base as possible. And admit it, I don't know of a more diverse and opinionated lot that we RPG'ers.

Thats why, even if I don't agree with their decisions, I don't waste time second-guessing or ranting about what they should of done. I have come to humbly admit, I have no idea what it takes to maintain a company the size of WotC.

/rant/ I love it when people hope for the death of WotC and wish for a smaller company to take over D&D and "treat it like it should be treated". What they really mean is: "I hope someone else makes D&D the way I think it should be and of course everyone else would love it too." /rant

(BTW I am not suggesting the OP feels this way)

 

[frankthedm]

Being able to ban Eastern entertainment inspired and psi-fi inspired powers in one single power source sounds like a win-win to me.

Also the Chi source seems pretty congruent with the energy from within theme of Psi.

 

[DEFCON 1]

[MENTION=97538]Nullzone[/MENTION]: I certainly believe you that the product is great... but I do not think it has generated nearly the excitement and expectation for not nearly the length that it might have had it appeared in a PH4.

[MENTION=607]Klaus[/MENTION]: I certainly understand what you're saying, and in some ways I agree with you. 'Psionic is the mind / Ki is the soul - same thing' is I'm sure the rallying cry behind that belief. But then again... that's because no one has bothered to actually create a good story behind Ki yet. Psionics came from an intrusion of the Far Realm... that's it's story. Ki most likely wouldn't have had anything to do with the Far Realm, and some other concepts would have been created to separate it from Psionic.

But at the very minimum... if Psionic was so much better than Ki and it swallowed it up and took it's stuff... then why weren't the mechanics of the Monk changed to match the rest of it's power source? Why wasn't the Full Discipline mechanic removed in favor of Augments? If WotC had done that... perhaps I wouldn't have been as disappointed in the idea of the source switch. But the fact that they changed nothing about the Monk Ki class they created except to say it's now 'Psionic' is just laziness... and I personally believe that many people see that and thus aren't as enthused about the Monk or the Psionic power source as they could have been.

[MENTION=59057]UngeheuerLich[/MENTION]: What you're saying is true, if we were to assume that the Seeker as a Primal is exactly as it would have been as a Ki. And for that, I don't know. I'd like to think that if the Seeker class actually was originally a Ki class... that the story behind the controller abilities were more 'infusing Ki energy into the arrows', rather than the primal spirits doing it. I mean in actuality, any of the power sources (except perhaps Martial) could justify a controller archer concept. So editing the class to say "The spirits did it!" rather than "he used his mind to do it!" or "the gods did it!" or "he infused his soul energy into it!" is a relatively easy change, which is why they just made it a Primal.

[MENTION=56755]korjik[/MENTION] / [MENTION=84095]Skism[/MENTION]: I heard that too, about the desire not to make a so-called 'Asian' themed source. And in many ways I can understand that. But by the same token more Western concepts have become just universal D&D ideas that have absolutely nothing to do with their 'real world' premises. D&D Druids are nothing like 'real' druidism. And the the Bards of history don't cast magic spells. So making Ki classes that have Asian concepts behind them can still turn into just regular D&D concepts over time if you let them.

But I also do think that (for instance) had they split the Ki source up to two classes each for PH3 and PH4 (like Divine and Arcane were for PH1 & PH2) it wouldn't have been nearly as difficult a sell, even with the flavor and names inspired by eastern traditions. And I think that looking back on history with 20/20 hindsight can tell us that even a theme that was based upon 'Asian magic' and whose story in the world of PoL D&D was perhaps slightly inspired by it, would certainly have been more interesting that the lack of story the Monk, Seeker, and Runepriest got.

And that's my biggest reason for posting what I did. It's not a question of whether I think the Ki power source as a concept was good or not or needed or not... but whether the Ki power source would have been better than what we got (or didn't get) from the three islands of Monk, Seeker, and Runepriest. Was what we have now... Player's Handbook 3 as is, and Heroes of Shadow upcoming... made the game more or less inspiring or exciting over the past and upcoming 15 months and sold more / been more popular... than it would have been had we gotten a formatted Player's Handbook 3 & 4 with matching Power splatbook material? That's really the question I'm asking.

 

[moxcamel]

For whatever reason, Western gamers do not, in general, play oriental settings. I don't know the exact reason, although I suspect that the culture is just too foreign. Everyone "gets" traditional swords and sorcery, even if you weren't raised on it. You have knights in shining armor, damsels in distress, gray castles, fire breathing dragons--we get that, and we can wrap our brains around it even if we don't know squat about European medieval history. But we don't get oriental mysticism, we don't get the whole Bushido code, and we just don't get a lot of what flavors a good oriental setting.

I played in an Oriental Adventures campaign once, and it was just effing painful. Everything became a terrible cliche, and those players who didn't have the OA book were even less prepared to deal with it. I think we managed about 3-5 sessions before we just couldn't do it anymore.

Now maybe that's changing, and maybe the anime/manga-inspired crowd will eventually start to influence what is produced, but as it stands now, anything overtly oriental flavored just isn't going to sell to Western gamers. I wasn't even aware that WotC had been planning some oriental themed materials, but from a business perspective I'd have to say they made the right call. I'm all about diversity in the game, but from a business perspective it would have been a disaster.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I think another thing WOTC did to shoot themselves in the foot (book wise) was starting to make shadow a DDI only thing. And then doing it in a spectacularly halfway job. Yes, maybe the assassin and revenant are cool, I really do not know, but putting them behind a paywall, and taking one of the stronger new power sources and putting it there was a mistake in my opinion.

Also, as the shadow source has not been really done even in DDI says a lot. Heroes of Shadow, according to the blurb on Amazon, will be more traditional 4E power sources using shadow, and not shadow itself.

Everyone (who has been with D&D for a while) knows what psionics is, or can make a good guess. Ditto with Shadow. But elemental and Ki are a lot more vague. Also, where did they fit the cosmology? The rest of the power sources fit petty closely.

Yeah, something went wrong in late 09 or early 10, that is for sure.

And this year is jsut totally messed up, from my point of view.

 

[Stoat]

I don't think the "new PHB every year" model was going to be sustainable in the long term under any circumstances. At a certain point, the most popular/distinct/interesting classes have been done, the law of diminishing returns kicks in, and the book will become more and more a niche product.

I think that, rather than the specific power sources chosen for PHB 3, is the issue.

I also suspect that the DDI is drawing folks away from the crunchy hardbacks. I bought the PHB and PHB2, but skipped PHB3 because I knew I could get the contents online through my DDI subscription.

 

[Incenjucar]

I disagree. Ki is psionic, psionic is ki. Arguably the monk should have something to spend Power Points on, and that wouldn't have been hard to build into the class, and Full Discipline could be spread to other classes (possibly NOT tied to power source). It is certainly arguable that runepriests and seekers were done incorrectly, though I have no issue with their inclusion. I cannot begin to form an opinion on Shadow, because we have not seen what they're doing with it. I'm uncomfortable with the direction it may be going, but WotC's information is too vague these days for anyone to derive enough facts to judge anything prior to release.

Regarding the elemental power source, I will defend its validity as a concept for the foreseeable future, considering I've dabbled in non-arcane elementalist class concepts since 2nd Edition. Feel free to necro an Elemental Power Source thread where you are likely to see just some of the ideas I have on how it can be implemented.

With... let's call them kionics... I feel they should do more with it. The power source has been squandered by being hurled out to appease the absolute requirement that D&D have monks and psionicists, and then fled from as soon as possible lest the chorus of wails of "sci-fi!" from the darkest pits of scorn flay the flesh from their bones.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Thankfully Wizards has learned a lot this year.

next year for instance, I'm sure we'll see a legends of Kara-Tur boxed set with options to customize all of the core classes with new chi powers.

But it'll be cancelled the month of its printing and turned into Eastern Fortunes, an expansion deck with Oriental Adventurers flavored abilities like Ki Strike that can be used 1/encounter.

 

[Klaus]

[MENTION=7006]DEFCON 1[/MENTION] : the monk doesn't have the same power structure of the psion, battlemind and ardent for the same reason the barbarian doesn't have the same mechanic of the druid or the shaman. Power sources don't dictate the power structure. The monk is an example of the "psionic-boosted self" aspect of the power source.

If you look at the Fighter or Rogue, you'll see they eventually get stuff that would be "ki-fueled", even though they're martial. And why not? Martial skill is a way to gauge one's advancement in the path of enlightenment in Eastern cultures, isn't it? The kensai is a martial PP.

 

[ragingpeanuts]

Note: sorry for the long post, imagine that, it's only my 5th post or something... But it's an intresting discussion and I like op's tone of voice in the way he started the thread. It just came out as a flow of thought. I haven't checked it for spelling, my apologies if it's a bit rough around the edges, it's late in the Netherlands

Chiming in on the OP's intent: boiled down he wrote "where do I think WOTC went wrong in their releases".

I dare to argue that they missed a very, very big chance from the very first moment 4e was released. They should've had the CB online the same day as the 4e corebooks hit the stores (as well as a working VTT and DM-tools). I'm a marketeer for a living, and from a marketing and marketresearch perspective DDI is awesome:

• Steady flow of revenue each month
• Huge amounts of constantly up to date targetgroup-data

The time of flooding the market with tons of printmedia things and expecting them to turn a profit is over. Do you know how much effort is involved releasing a good printproduct, compared to online stuff? Going through all that stuff and then having to find out your book flopped...

With the tools ready at the beginning, decisionmaking would've been much more grounded in solid facts. First year line-up would've already been a given: PH2 & DMG2, as a a few starting adventures. But after that most stuff becomes very niche-oriented (shardminds? Wildens? Meh). That's where the whole datamining stuff from online tools would become so useful for them.

The online efforts should be supported with printreleases. But instead of all the niche-related stuff, they should've gone for a few major releases each year of superb quality. Things that really have value - good adventures for instance. Stuff like the power-series of fluffbooks should've been reserved for the DDI, giving players an incentive to have an ongoing subscription (plus giving lots of online material in a steady stream of releases, enticing people to come back). Campaignbooks are also a good thing I think to release in print. Tokens, maps, practical stuff.

DnD is a niche-product, with a relatively small group of buyers. In the end, WOTC's value comes from releasing products and services that enable players to create and play - just adding more books with small choices doesn't do that. (the cancellation of certain printproducts and extra focus on online tools might indicate that WOTC is realising this too) The game is already overly complex on multiple levels for casual players - who are normally the majority for products such as this. WOTC noticed this, and tried to do something. But seriously: the essentials line? I really wonder what their marketing-people were thinking. Geared towards attracting new players, but releasing it as the retro red box? What's that all about? It's a confusing product, and from what i can see, it only makes character creation easier, which you already can take as much time for as you like. Ryan S. Dancey explained it perfectly in his blog.

Who are the people that buy the majority of the stuff for DnD? My guts tell me they're DM's. Much of the print-stuff should be geared towards them. Campaignbooks (with player stuff in it as well), dm-tiles, and stuff that generally makes the dm's life better. I still don't get why they haven't released a 'on the fly book'. I book that has a few pages solely dedicated technical side of building monsters, skill challenges and locations 'on the fly', with standard examples that are easily modifiable at all levels.

Stuff for the players should be things that add fluff to characters without sucking up time. Stuff like the fortunecards that add power and fluff are fantastic for the casual players - and sensible as a source of renewable revenue. A customizable book that makes it easy for players to flesh out their character by adding stuff like characterportraits, ritual-cards, and makes it easier for them to track their stuff at the table, etc.

Why don't they have a personal printingservice, so that you can upload your own adventure (which you created through the WOTC-tools they should've released already) and have it printed and delivered? You can then even put it up online and share with the community, let them rate it, etc. so that other people can order those adventures, with all revenue going from the printing process going to WOTC (or maybe not even make revenue off it other than break-even, so as to keep it as cheap as possible). Same goes for DDI-articles. Want to have that fluff-article for a swordmage so you can use it at the table? Print and deliver.

Don't get me wrong: I love 4e. We had some time with 3.5, but it was just too much. Too much skills, too much imbalance, not enough clarity. The system for 4e itself is infinitely easier to use. But the tools just aren't their, even though it's possible (I mean, how awesome would Masterplan (Masterplan) be if it had budget and people who had to create it to make a living out of it? If stuff like this can be created in spare time by some people out of labor of love, then wotc should surely be able to do it.