Lots of Blood & Vigilance questions/thoughts

[Martyr of the Cause]

Greetings!

We've just kicked our "1st" edition (pre 7.30 version) Blood & Vigilance campaign off last week and are now completed our second session. Game play definitely brought up a lot of questions:

1. How do you award XP for the minions a Mastermind gets? Are they just treated as part of the XP you get for fighting him? I mean, even at 1st level, 50+ dudes are a THREAT to six 5th level characters. I can see the argument for them being just part of the Mastermind character's XP award, but I'd like to know one way or another.

2. Growth seems pretty powerful. For the sake of simplicity, if you treat the skill bonuses and penalties of being larger (penalties on Hide and whatnot but bonuses to grapple, etc) as equaling out, 8 points of Growth breaks down to being +8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 Natural Armor, -1 Size Modifier, and extra unarmed damage dice. That effectively becomes +3 to melee attacks, +4-6 to melee damage, +2 HP per level, and the hand-to-hand damage bump (the +2 natural armor offsets the -1 Def for size and -1 for the reduced Dex, and the +4 Str bonus to hit is reduced by 1 for the size modifier). That seems too good, especially when compared to the +4 to melee attacks and +4 to melee damage you get for Superhuman Strength. Sure, you have one point less to attack, but you get 2 extra HP per level AND increased damage instead. The part that makes it truly wrong is that it adds onto what the Superhuman Strength gives you, making you pretty crazy for what you can do with melee (it's not hard to get up to 1d8+15, which bumps you into Knockback often, which only makes it more evil). It seems too much, whereas if it was a +4 Str instead of +8 it'd end up as +1 to hit, +2 to damage, +2 HP per level, and increased hand-to-hand, which is much closer to having spent 4 PP in SuperStrength and 4 PP in SuperConstitution.

I guess that's not a question, but more of a wondering what I might be missing that makes Growth not as fresh as it seems? Yes, there's the headroom issue, but that can't be enough with the number of outdoor and warehouse encounters in comics.

3. Mind Control seems pretty extreme. It's very, very "all or nothing". I suppose this one isn't as much of a question either, but a suggestion. As is, it may take 3 rounds to take over somebody, but you have them for like 5-6 rounds from there out by spending a Move Action and staying alive. But, if there's only one guy in the fight and he makes his save, your powers mean nothing from there out. If the power could be used again should the target make their save, but at the same time granted a save each round (perhaps even with a cumilative bonus for each round you missed the save), I think it'd be a better representation of the Mind Control powers of comics and make life less random for the dominating telepaths of the world.

4. Do powers from books like Superhero Arcana and whatnot have classes associated with them? For example, I could see INvulnerability being a class power for Tough Heroes.

5. Knockback's Reflex DC of 20 seems harsh. I mean, they already just took 20+ damage, and now there's another save for even MORE damage? DC 20 is no joke when it comes to saves. Shouldn't this be more based on the character's level or PP?

6. How do DSRs such as Phobias add into XP? For example, our crew has a character with at least a +12 Will save but a DSR 3 Phobia of 3 against melee combat/personal physical confrontation. Does the EL for the battle increase by 3 for that character because he managed to make a saving throw? Or does it increase the EL of who he was fighting? How does that factor in when it's 50 some 1st level guys a Mastermind character brought to the fight? We were really lost on how to award XP on this one.

7. What reason (other than character flavor) would I want to take Super Leaping over Flight? I can see why you'd want Super Running over Super Leaping (because you add Super Running to your base move while Super Jumping replaces your base move), but Flight is just as quick as Super Leaping but has all the benefits of flight as well. Is the idea what you don't do just one super-leap but a series of smaller leaps, thereby enabling you greater maneuverability than an equal number of points in Flight (which has average maneuverability)? Or is Super Leap just for suckers?

8. Is the Blast Power DC supposed to be +1 per 2 PP or +2 per PP? As +1 DC per 2 PP it seems a bit better than the damage caused by firearms (which is should be, after all), but not too much so. On the other hand, were the DC very hard for half-damage, it'd put Blast on par with the mega-Strength/Growth characters for how much harm they dish out, and maybe that's the design. Which is it?

9. Are all these questions answered in the "revised" edition of Blood & Vigilance? By "revised" I mean the edition that came out on July 30th, as opposed to the one our GM bought sometime in June. I've heard Regenerate got nerfed, and that Advanced Training got a boost, but what else changed? I don't need an itemized list, but being able to make an informed decision based on a general list of what changed would be awesome.


So, it's 9 lengthy questions/thoughts, but if the good people of this forum and the Blood & Vigilance enthusiasts out there can lend some experience, I can think of seven happy gamers that will sing your praises some next Thursday.

 

[Vigilance]

Chuck here, author of Blood & Vigilance.

Greetings!

We've just kicked our "1st" edition (pre 7.30 version) Blood & Vigilance campaign off last week and are now completed our second session. Game play definitely brought up a lot of questions:

1. How do you award XP for the minions a Mastermind gets? Are they just treated as part of the XP you get for fighting him? I mean, even at 1st level, 50+ dudes are a THREAT to six 5th level characters. I can see the argument for them being just part of the Mastermind character's XP award, but I'd like to know one way or another.

It depends. If the minions are there with the Mastermind and are basically serving as cannon fodder, just award XP for the mastermind.

If the PCs are low level and some of the mastermind's henchmen are the entire encounter, I'd award XP for them.

2. Growth seems pretty powerful. For the sake of simplicity, if you treat the skill bonuses and penalties of being larger (penalties on Hide and whatnot but bonuses to grapple, etc) as equaling out, 8 points of Growth breaks down to being +8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 Natural Armor, -1 Size Modifier, and extra unarmed damage dice. That effectively becomes +3 to melee attacks, +4-6 to melee damage, +2 HP per level, and the hand-to-hand damage bump (the +2 natural armor offsets the -1 Def for size and -1 for the reduced Dex, and the +4 Str bonus to hit is reduced by 1 for the size modifier). That seems too good, especially when compared to the +4 to melee attacks and +4 to melee damage you get for Superhuman Strength. Sure, you have one point less to attack, but you get 2 extra HP per level AND increased damage instead. The part that makes it truly wrong is that it adds onto what the Superhuman Strength gives you, making you pretty crazy for what you can do with melee (it's not hard to get up to 1d8+15, which bumps you into Knockback often, which only makes it more evil). It seems too much, whereas if it was a +4 Str instead of +8 it'd end up as +1 to hit, +2 to damage, +2 HP per level, and increased hand-to-hand, which is much closer to having spent 4 PP in SuperStrength and 4 PP in SuperConstitution.

I guess that's not a question, but more of a wondering what I might be missing that makes Growth not as fresh as it seems? Yes, there's the headroom issue, but that can't be enough with the number of outdoor and warehouse encounters in comics.

Given that the power is almost never taken, the question sort of answers itself in some ways. Since, in my experience, if a power is WAY broken everyone gravitates to it.

Growth is powerful no doubt and can help you make the ultimate brick.

But the power has no subtlety, meaning you will be THE target for just about everything on the field.

Also, you're going to cause a lot of property damage and/or there will be MANY campaign situations where you can't use it at all or have limited access to it.

Submarine? Spaceship? Sewer? Thick Jungle (where growing would just effectively give every opponent the full concealment of the jungle canopy).

In my experience, Growth is a power that is AWESOME when you can use it to its fullest. But that often doesnt happen. In a spaceship with a 10 ft. ceiling, you are very limited in your growth and those power points are wasted.

And when you CAN grow to 60 feet and start kicking people around, the growth brick can expect a coordinated attack by 2-3 opponents in the first round.

3. Mind Control seems pretty extreme. It's very, very "all or nothing". I suppose this one isn't as much of a question either, but a suggestion. As is, it may take 3 rounds to take over somebody, but you have them for like 5-6 rounds from there out by spending a Move Action and staying alive. But, if there's only one guy in the fight and he makes his save, your powers mean nothing from there out. If the power could be used again should the target make their save, but at the same time granted a save each round (perhaps even with a cumilative bonus for each round you missed the save), I think it'd be a better representation of the Mind Control powers of comics and make life less random for the dominating telepaths of the world.

I think what you're missing is all those concentration checks a mind control based character will have to make, that will frequently grant new saves.

Also, that all or nothing is pretty commonly nothing.

Finally, what is the usual reaction to a character known to have mind control?

4. Do powers from books like Superhero Arcana and whatnot have classes associated with them? For example, I could see INvulnerability being a class power for Tough Heroes.

Been awhile since I looked at this one and I didn't write it. Let me scope it out and I'll respond in a bit.

5. Knockback's Reflex DC of 20 seems harsh. I mean, they already just took 20+ damage, and now there's another save for even MORE damage? DC 20 is no joke when it comes to saves. Shouldn't this be more based on the character's level or PP?

Given the Dex of high level B&V heroes, a 20 save isn't as harsh as it would seem to a normal campaign. At low levels, sure, this can be tricky.

But remember, you don't always take damage. It depends on the environment. Usually knockback is a pain and a little extra damage.

6. How do DSRs such as Phobias add into XP? For example, our crew has a character with at least a +12 Will save but a DSR 3 Phobia of 3 against melee combat/personal physical confrontation. Does the EL for the battle increase by 3 for that character because he managed to make a saving throw? Or does it increase the EL of who he was fighting? How does that factor in when it's 50 some 1st level guys a Mastermind character brought to the fight? We were really lost on how to award XP on this one.

Usually disads should be considered seperate encounters. If you made your saving throw against a phobia at DSR 3, you defeated a CR 3 encounter and gain the approriate XP.

If you had to cope with penalties from a disad for an entire encounter while fighting a villain, then you could consider increasing the encounter CR.

7. What reason (other than character flavor) would I want to take Super Leaping over Flight? I can see why you'd want Super Running over Super Leaping (because you add Super Running to your base move while Super Jumping replaces your base move), but Flight is just as quick as Super Leaping but has all the benefits of flight as well. Is the idea what you don't do just one super-leap but a series of smaller leaps, thereby enabling you greater maneuverability than an equal number of points in Flight (which has average maneuverability)? Or is Super Leap just for suckers?

Superleap is an easier power to dabble in, since you don't need to worry about maneuverability.

Also, it can move cover more ground per power point in a single round, since you can move double if you get a running start, making leap a preferred power for that Brick who loves to charge.

8. Is the Blast Power DC supposed to be +1 per 2 PP or +2 per PP? As +1 DC per 2 PP it seems a bit better than the damage caused by firearms (which is should be, after all), but not too much so. On the other hand, were the DC very hard for half-damage, it'd put Blast on par with the mega-Strength/Growth characters for how much harm they dish out, and maybe that's the design. Which is it?

This was changed to 15 plus the power points in version 1.1 since the save became too easy at higher levels.

9. Are all these questions answered in the "revised" edition of Blood & Vigilance? By "revised" I mean the edition that came out on July 30th, as opposed to the one our GM bought sometime in June. I've heard Regenerate got nerfed, and that Advanced Training got a boost, but what else changed? I don't need an itemized list, but being able to make an informed decision based on a general list of what changed would be awesome.

The person that bought the B&V PDF can make a free account at www.rpgobjects.com and download version 1.1 for free. All our PDF updates are free for purchasers.

Summary of changes:

1.Advanced Training origin tweaked
2. Blast, Regeneration, Healing Touch powers tweaked
3. New powers added: Power Mimic and Power Nullifcation and Super Skill

Unique Item power added/tweaked to bring the book into full compliance with the gadget accessory, Blood and Circuits.

So, it's 9 lengthy questions/thoughts, but if the good people of this forum and the Blood & Vigilance enthusiasts out there can lend some experience, I can think of seven happy gamers that will sing your praises some next Thursday.

Hope this helped,

Chuck

 

[Martyr of the Cause]

Awesome!

Chuck here, author of Blood & Vigilance.

Thanks once more for responding personally.

It depends. If the minions are there with the Mastermind and are basically serving as cannon fodder, just award XP for the mastermind.

If the PCs are low level and some of the mastermind's henchmen are the entire encounter, I'd award XP for them.

Makes sense.

Given that the power is almost never taken, the question sort of answers itself in some ways. Since, in my experience, if a power is WAY broken everyone gravitates to it.

Growth is powerful no doubt and can help you make the ultimate brick.

But the power has no subtlety, meaning you will be THE target for just about everything on the field.

Also, you're going to cause a lot of property damage and/or there will be MANY campaign situations where you can't use it at all or have limited access to it.

Submarine? Spaceship? Sewer? Thick Jungle (where growing would just effectively give every opponent the full concealment of the jungle canopy).

In my experience, Growth is a power that is AWESOME when you can use it to its fullest. But that often doesnt happen. In a spaceship with a 10 ft. ceiling, you are very limited in your growth and those power points are wasted.

And when you CAN grow to 60 feet and start kicking people around, the growth brick can expect a coordinated attack by 2-3 opponents in the first round.[/GROWTH]

I definitely understand where you're coming from, but I still see the power as being a bit over the top in what it gives you. Maybe it'll balance out as our GM runs a larger variety of encounters.

I think what you're missing is all those concentration checks a mind control based character will have to make, that will frequently grant new saves.

Also, that all or nothing is pretty commonly nothing.

Finally, what is the usual reaction to a character known to have mind control?[/GROWTH]

Perhaps I misspoke. I wasn't saying Mind Control was too powerful. I was saying it seemed too extreme, in that it was either plenty useful or plenty useless. We did notice the concentration required to control someone and all that. I think what was annyoing to our telepath was that he tried to hit their guy with a -1 to his Will save, and he got lucky and pumped out a 19. Now, for 24 hours, he cannot try to get this guy, who should be an easy target, again. It seems that if he had another stab at the guy, but no matter what every round he has the guy his victim makes another save to fight it off (especially with a culimative bonus), and THEN he can't be controlled for whatever duration, the power would be both fresher for the user (because it's less of a giant gamble) and for the victim (because they have a chance to escape). As it, I definitely think it is balanced, just too much of an all-or-nothing power.

Been awhile since I looked at this one and I didn't write it. Let me scope it out and I'll respond in a bit.

No biggie. I was curious.

Given the Dex of high level B&V heroes, a 20 save isn't as harsh as it would seem to a normal campaign. At low levels, sure, this can be tricky.

But remember, you don't always take damage. It depends on the environment. Usually knockback is a pain and a little extra damage.

I could see that too. I must have missed the bit about not always taking damage (I thought it was something that always happened).

Usually disads should be considered seperate encounters. If you made your saving throw against a phobia at DSR 3, you defeated a CR 3 encounter and gain the approriate XP.

If you had to cope with penalties from a disad for an entire encounter while fighting a villain, then you could consider increasing the encounter CR.

Right on. Again, this makes sense.

Superleap is an easier power to dabble in, since you don't need to worry about maneuverability.

Also, it can move cover more ground per power point in a single round, since you can move double if you get a running start, making leap a preferred power for that Brick who loves to charge.

So, can you not double-fly?
Also, can you make multiple jumps in a single round with Super Leap? For example, let's say I wanted to leap down a hallway (with a tall enough ceiling), turn right, and leap again, all within the limit of my Super Leap distance. Our GM has said he doesn't see this as how Super Leap works, but it does seem like this is how it might work, especially to make the power more in balance with Flight.

This was changed to 15 plus the power points in version 1.1 since the save became too easy at higher levels.

OUCH!
That definitely makes Blasts much more powerful, and gives the shooty character's a chance to pour out as much as the melee beasts. Our 5th level blasting character just when from Fortitude DC 15 (10 plus 2/PP, including his DSR 2) to Fortitude DC 25! He's going to like that.

The person that bought the B&V PDF can make a free account at www.rpgobjects.com and download version 1.1 for free. All our PDF updates are free for purchasers.

Summary of changes:

1.Advanced Training origin tweaked
2. Blast, Regeneration, Healing Touch powers tweaked
3. New powers added: Power Mimic and Power Nullifcation and Super Skill

Unique Item power added/tweaked to bring the book into full compliance with the gadget accessory, Blood and Circuits.

That is awesome news! I'll let him know.
if it was a major update, I don't think anyone would have minded buying another copy, as we really dig the game (though there's a lot about it that wasn't clear upon first, second, and third readings). But, for minor updates like this, the free update is very much appreciated. The guy was kicking himself for buying it and then there was an update right afterwards.

Hope this helped,

Chuck

Always! Again, the help is very much appreciated. On behalf of our seven-man crew, THANKS!

 

[Vigilance]

Perhaps I misspoke. I wasn't saying Mind Control was too powerful. I was saying it seemed too extreme, in that it was either plenty useful or plenty useless. We did notice the concentration required to control someone and all that. I think what was annyoing to our telepath was that he tried to hit their guy with a -1 to his Will save, and he got lucky and pumped out a 19. Now, for 24 hours, he cannot try to get this guy, who should be an easy target, again.

Well, originally the power had a limited number of uses per day. You do need to carefully monitor a power like this for balance, since the effects are serious and lasting if you fail your save, so something needs to balance it.

You're looking at it from the telepath's point of view. Now turn it around and look at it from the brick's point of view. You need a 19 to save and you make it. Would you appreciate rolling a 19 meaning you get a one round reprieve?

In the end, my players liked the way the power works now more than they did when (as an example) they could use it once per day per character level (I think that's what it was at first).

The way it is now, the power is more useful against hordes of minions.

I could see that too. I must have missed the bit about not always taking damage (I thought it was something that always happened).

The other thing to consider is how quick saves can get GOOD in B&V. I wrote up some ninja for an upcoming short adventure and I didn't go out of my way to pump their Reflex saves, but they had a +15 at 6th level.

This is why saving throws tend to be on the high side.

So, can you not double-fly?

If you take more actions to fly, sure, you could move double your flight distance as a full-found action. So a character with 50' of Flight could move 100' as a full round action.

On the other hand, a character with 50' of superleap could move 30' running (his standard ground movement) and then take a 100' running leap.

Also, if he was standing on the top of a 100' tall building, he could just drop to the ground as a move action, taking no damage. The character with flight would have to again take a full round action.

Also, can you make multiple jumps in a single round with Super Leap? For example, let's say I wanted to leap down a hallway (with a tall enough ceiling), turn right, and leap again, all within the limit of my Super Leap distance. Our GM has said he doesn't see this as how Super Leap works, but it does seem like this is how it might work, especially to make the power more in balance with Flight.

I usually allow ground movement more maneuverability. For leaping like this, I might require a Tumble check but I probably would allow it. Of course I wasn't at the table so I'm not attempting to monday morning QB your game master.

OUCH!
That definitely makes Blasts much more powerful, and gives the shooty character's a chance to pour out as much as the melee beasts. Our 5th level blasting character just when from Fortitude DC 15 (10 plus 2/PP, including his DSR 2) to Fortitude DC 25! He's going to like that.

Right. What's he's going to find is that saves and damage reduction take a more serious bite out of his attacks as he rises in level.

That is awesome news! I'll let him know.
if it was a major update, I don't think anyone would have minded buying another copy, as we really dig the game (though there's a lot about it that wasn't clear upon first, second, and third readings). But, for minor updates like this, the free update is very much appreciated. The guy was kicking himself for buying it and then there was an update right afterwards.

Right, we try to take the guesswork out of it. We don't want folks waiting to buy the PDF thinking it might be updated or there might be a print edition on the way. So we provide free updates and upgrade discounts on print books for folks who bought the PDF.

Always! Again, the help is very much appreciated. On behalf of our seven-man crew, THANKS!

My pleasure. Sounds like a nice game you have going.

Chuck