D&D General Low Magic vs. High; what is the difference, and are we confusing them with Low vs. High Fantasy?

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
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So I saw that one of the many Greyhawk threads is debating low magic, and I thought to myself; "Is Greyhawk really low magic? What even is a low magic setting?"

And once I did some research, I realized something... there isn't really a definition for what this even means. It isn't actually a term used often in genre definitions, so doesn't have clear parameters or explanations.

No, what is used, and what people are actually referring to when they say "Low Magic," is "Low Fantasy."

Low Fantasy (and its opposite, High Fantasy) does have clear definitions, although it technically has two.

The first is relatively simple; Low Fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy fiction where magical events intrude on an otherwise normal world.

Most Low Fantasy is set in our own world; the primary example is something like the world of Muggles in Harry Potter, specifically everything Harry encounters before moving into the "Wizarding World." Everything in his life is normal, defined by the rules of science and math we are all taught. But suddenly, Harry has a snake talking to him, owls bombarding his house with letters, and a giant appears to take him off to a magic school. The otherwise normal world has quite suddenly been intruded by several magical events.

Now, this setting doesn't apply much to D&D; after all, most folks don't set their games on Earth, in any time period. Now you could; the best examples include setting your game in Arthurian England, or Charlemagne's France, where the normal world is suddenly being interfered by a rampaging dragon, or meddlesome fey spirits. But lets move even further away from such examples, to established settings that are completely divorced from our own, but still meet the metric for Low Fantasy.

The most famous example would likely be Westeros of Game of Thrones, specifically during the events of book one and season 1. Although a completely different world than Earth, there is very little changed from that of Medieval Europe; there is no magic, the gods do not grant powers (and perhaps do not exist), and monsters are nearly unheard of, and mostly disbelieved. Dragons are dead, and some believe never lived at all.

But the normal world of Westeros is interrupted, first by a dire wolf leaving her pups to the Starks (itself not much of an intrusion) but later by the more sinister undead of the far north, commanded by the mysterious White Walkers. By the end of the book, we have a shamanic sorceress attempting black magic, and of course the hatching of the first dragons in hundreds of years.

The world of Westeros is intruded upon by magic, even though by the end of the series largely reverts to the non-magical status quo before such events.

To use another example, the world of Berserk (a manga and anime) is set in an original but normal world. In the Golden Age, the Kingdom of Midland is engaged in a Hundred-Year War against the Tudor Empire (you can likely see the inspirations). But such a war is fought by normal means; knights and spears and shields clash in battle, but there is no supernatural elements. Until of course, our protagonist Guts faces against a man who is no man, but instead a demon. And that is just the prelude to our anti-hero's long war against the demonic forces, foes most people believe do not exist. They masquerade after all as normal humans, if powerful ones. Another manga, Demonslayer, has a similar premise of demons intruding upon the normal post-feudal world of Japan.

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But this is the first definition of Low Fantasy. The second is more nuanced; An alternative definition, rests on the story and characters being more realistic and less mythic in scope.

Under this definition, the world or setting can indeed be magical, but it is important that our characters themselves, and their means in the story, or not. Under this definition, Conan the Barbarian is Low Fantasy; the Hyborian Age is indeed magical, where wizards and sorcerers rule and oppose our heroes. But Conan himself is not; he is a normal man, if an incredible one in feats of strength of dexterity. But still a non-magical one. He means to best his magical foes like Thulsa Doom and Thoth-Amon through non-magical means, and his goals are simple; to become plunder and become rich.

Now that we have these definitions out of the way, do we truly have any "Low Fantasy Settings?" The answer frankly seems to be "no." Neither Greyhawk or even Birthright truly fit the same level of groundedness of Westeres or Midland. Wizards exist and are well known; orcs and goblins roam the lands, and even form their own kingdoms and empires. Although one could set a game to be within one of the most "normal" kingdoms like Keoland, the peasants are well aware of the presence of magic and do their best to guard against the very real threats of gnolls and sahuagin. These are not intrusions on the normal world; they are indeed part of the status-quo.

The second definition is also a weak one for a D&D game, unless the party purposefully agrees to it beforehand. To make a Conan-like party, you need one that has no wizards, clerics, or other spellcasters. You would be limited to only some of the subclasses of fighter, ranger, barbarian and rogue. A rare D&D party in all honestly, though a possible one.

Therefore, a Low Magic setting is one that is possible to play in D&D, and I'd argue even fun. But to truly fit in the framework of Low Fantasy or Low Magic, you would need to look elsewhere from one of the published D&D settings, and instead forge your own world or set it in a historical time period. It definitely is doable, and many have done this. But Greyhawk and Birthright are at best Mid-Magic settings, not truly low ones.

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In my opinion, the difference between low and high magic in Dungeons and Dragons is how the Players' Characters aquire their magic.

In a high magic setting they get their magic items by going to the store, and they get their spells by going to school. Whereas in a low magic setting they find their magic items in dungeons, and learn their spells from a mentor--demonic or otherwise.

These are not mutually exclusive. You can have both in a setting and usually do, but if you have magic shops and wizard schools it's likely a high magic setting.

Magic often stands in for science and technology in a high magic setting, that's why I refer to such settings' magic as modern. Modern Magic is different from Mystical Magic. Modern Magic is predictable--like technology. It can be understood and manipulated. Mystical Magic, on the other hand, is mysterious and capricious.

Player's Characters in both high and low magic settings can be identical when it comes to magical power. The difference is what that says about them. Does it say they are wealthy and bought their magic at the store or school, or did they get their magical power through more mysterious ways.
 
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Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
In my opinion, the difference between low and high magic in Dungeons and Dragons is how the Players' Characters aquire their magic.

In a high magic setting they get their magic items by going to the store, and they get their spells by going to school. Whereas in a low magic setting they find their magic items in dungeons, and learn their spells from a mentor--demonic or otherwise.

These are not mutually exclusive. You can have both in a setting and usually do, but if you have magic shops and wizard schools it's likely a high magic setting.

Magic often stands in for science and technology in a high magic setting, that's why I refer to such settings' magic as modern. Modern Magic is different from Mystical Magic. Modern Magic is predictable--like technology. It can be understood and manipulated. Mystical Magic, on the other hand, is mysterious and capricious.

Player's Characters in both high and low magic settings can be identical when it comes to magical power. The difference is what that says about them. Does it say they are wealthy and bought their magic at the store or school, or did they get their magical power through more mysterious ways.

I think this is partly true, however I do think at a certain point we cross over from Low to High fantasy, regardless of where the magic is coming from. If for example a PC has the fly spell and can use it multiple times after a long rest, I think you've fully moved into High Fantasy, regardless of where that source is from.
 

For me, the single biggest metric between Low Magic and High Magic is the frequency of encountering it. Primarily encountering it in the world, but also the players encountering it (to a lesser degree). That is to say, I could run Low Magic and have it be something incredibly rare for the entire world. But that might get diluted when the players hit Tier 4 and leave the world for other planes (etc.)

For me, the single biggest metric between Low Fantasy and High Fantasy is the intensity and adherence to narrative fantasy tropes. Westeros shirks and subverts many classic narrative tropes, while Conan grabs those tropes and rides them into battle bellowing warcries. I would count both as Low Magic (very infrequent).
 

Recently I suggested to a group of young players in their teens that the wizard in their party may just be one of a handful in the world, or maybe even--the only one. They were confused, then bemused, then dismissive.

Such a setting, with but a single magic-user*, would be low magic**. But, from the players' point of view it's not that different. Particularly when they start flying around, teleporting, tossing fireballs, and generally bending reality like a pretzel--it's downright high magic.

So for me low versus high magic has less to do with the player's experience at the table and more to do with the expectations of the setting. For instance, in a setting with only a handful of magic-users, you mightn't expect to find healing potions for sale.

But to your point Urriak, it seems that high versus low magic can be two different things: expectations of the setting versus player experience at the table. I'm not certain which one we're talking about; however, I believe setting expectations has more impact on player experience than the other way around. Eberron, for instance, would almost certainly force a high magic experience on the players. On the other hand, a party of high level warlocks and wizards would be less likely to force a setting to be considered high magic***. Either way, it's a high magic experience for the players.

It would seem a low magic experience for the players would need both a low magic setting and a lack of magic users among the players. (I think this is what Seramus just said above.)




*No Druids, sorcerers, warlocks, liches, clerics, devastators, etc, etc.

**Unless of course that single magic-user himself is ubiquitous and always meddling in people's affairs.

***Eureka!
 

Low versus high fantasy. I'm befuddled. I'm not sure I get it.

  • Conan is low fantasy, but The Dark Crystal is high fantasy.
  • The Hobbit is low fantasy, but The Wizard of Oz is high fantasy.
  • Bladerunner is low fantasy, but Tron is high fantasy.
  • Disenchanted is low fantasy, but adventure Time is high fantasy.

At least that's the way I'm seeing low versus high fantasy. Admittedly I've yet to seriously consider it before now.

From my very personal list of comparisons above, it would seem my conception of low fantasy is more rooted in the real world (my world), and high fantasy is less rooted in the real world.
 

GuardianLurker

Adventurer
So part of D&D's problem is that the rules go from Low Fantasy to High Fantasy as the characters progress in levels. So to get Low Fantasy a simple way would be to cap levels somewhere between 7 and 10. The old E6 variant of D20 would be a good approach to this.

But the difference between Low Magic and High Magic is how durable, how permanent, magic and its effects can be. Wizards can be throwing 9th level spells around, but if they have limited durations (minutes or hours) not much will be different than real world history. More importantly, there won't be any magic items, because there is no way way to make an enchantment permanent.

In High Magic, the techniques to make make permanent (or at least arbitrarily long in duration) items and magical effects means that, over time, such things accumulate and start warping how the cultures respond. Regardless of whether items are found, made off-screen, or are PC projects, magic will eventually be everywhere.

A mid-magic world would be one where long-duration magic requires continual and active investment in resources. Maybe one monastery has a special spell that their choir casts every morning as part of their ritual that puts up a protection against supernatural creatures, or the Wizard's academy is consuming a font of magic to keep a demon locked away.
 

FXR

Explorer
For me, a low-magic setting is one where magic is rare but, more than anything, mysterious (and consequently feared and misunderstood). It has nothing to do with magic being powerful or not.

In D&D, magic isn't mysterious. It's a tool, just like a sword and it is as predictable. A warlock throw eldritch blasts like an archer fires arrow. The pact he made with a supposedly elder evil being from outside time and space has no consequence except granting additional spells and a few additional powers.

That's why people are wrong believing warlocks are an appropriate class for S&S (often seen as low-magic) settings. Thematically, they aren't wrong but mechanically, warlocks in D&D are eldritch blast spammers with a few ribbons added for good measure. They are nothing like the sorcerers in Hyboria or Zothique, but more similar to the guy yelling "Lightning Bolt! Lightning Bolt! Lightning Bolt!" in a viral video of 2003 or so.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Like I said in other discussions, I don't think "low magic" is actually a thing. This is because there are several aspects of magic: Magic user power, Magic user Frequency, Magic UserVersatility, Magic Creature Frequency, Magic Creature "Strangeness".

Low and High Fantasy is determined by how many of these aspects exist in the world and how many affect the world at the time of the story or game.
 

My definition of Low Fantasy and Low Magic is "close to being just like Earth." The big thing to look for is how much are peoples lives effected by fantasy or magic. Can people solve problems with the snap of a finger? If the answer is none, or very little, it's a low setting.

Low magic/Low fantasy settings- Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Supernatural, Connan, John Carter, Bablyon 5, Battlestar Glatatica, Firefly and Star Wars.

High Fantasy and High magic is the other end: "It's not even close to being like Earth" and is often quite strange and alien. Fantasy and magic effects peoples lives to an everyday extent. People can solve problems with the magic finger snap.

High magic/high fantasy-Mystrara, Forgotten Realms, Planescape, Spelljammer, Dr. Who, most Superheros, Transformers, and Star Trek.

And it's not if some 'high' bits exist, it's more does a typical character have any hope of ever using them.
 

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