Low magic vs. magic as a plot device

[Desdichado]

A lot of folks (myself included) often complain that magic in D&D doesn't feel anything like magic in the fantasy novels we know and love, and which are our inspiration for the game.

However, it may not really be very possible to have magic that works like it does in novels, because magic is often merely a plot device that is either inconsistent, or too poorly detailed to tell if it's consistent or not. How do you replicate that in a game, and even if you could, would you want to? I don't think so, although maybe some disagree.

So, for those who like lower magic games, for whatever reason (and in my experience, that's usually flavor) how do you see magic? Is it a plot device? Is it a PC tool, as in D&D, but a different kind?

Personally I see it as something in between in my games. My current game uses a kind of hybrid of Call of Cthulhu magic and Incantations, which are already really similar anyway in terms of how they work. Because of that, magic isn't common, there's not tons of spells available out there, and the cost of using them ensure that they do become a plot device of sorts. However, I don't use them to drive the plot, because I don't believe in determining "the plot" as a GM, and prefer PC driven "plots." But they certainly make for turning points in the plot, and the cost makes sure that they are character driving moments as well.

 

[mmadsen]

A lot of folks (myself included) often complain that magic in D&D doesn't feel anything like magic in the fantasy novels we know and love, and which are our inspiration for the game.

I'm definitely one of those people. I even started a thread on this exact same topic over on RPGnet, Magic as Plot Device -- With Rules:

A standard complaint about D&D magic (and much RPG magic in general) is that it doesn't feel magical; it's too tactical, too well-defined, too scientific. Of course, if it's not well-defined, it's hard to adjudicate within a game -- and at least part of D&D's allure is that it's a game with rules.

What are some straightforward, easy-to-adjudicate ways to get that "plot device" magic feel -- without losing game-ability?

Ravenloft offers a few interesting elements. Evil acts (and evil spells in particular) draw a Powers Check -- the Dark Powers may take notice and grant the evildoer a twisted boon to draw him down the Path of Corruption. (Star Wars has Dark Side points that achieve much the same thing.)

Curses have well spelled-out rules with bonuses for justification, a proper escape clause, etc.

Ravenloft also modifies many plot-crashing spells (most divinations, remove curse, etc.), forcing characters to do a little detective work, to quest for a cure to the curse or disease that plagues them, etc.

Call of Cthulhu makes spells fairly rare, generally creepy, and very costly to learn or cast. Players fear the Sanity cost of learning and casting magic spells.

GURPS' alternate unlimited mana rules offer a surprisingly elegant solution: instead of providing spellcasters with a hard limit (whether in terms of fatigue points, power points, or spell slots), it gives them a soft limit they can cross -- with (random) consequences.

Also -- and this may sound trivial -- it gives spellcasters quite a bit of power, but power that does not return completely overnight. Much of the mundane nature of gaming magic is in its trivial cost. If you make a D&D spellcaster's slot monthly rather than daily, you don't change his adventuring behavior much, but you explain why magic isn't quite so ubiquitous.

The recent Buffy the Vampire Slayer game goes out of its way to emulate the "plot device" magic of the show. One of the simpler mechanics it uses for this is a roll to see if a spell works flawlessly. A spell can do any number of things:

Fails
Works
Works, but delayed
Works, but weakly
Works, but caster harmed
Works, but wrong target
Unexpected effect

Thus, magic often comes at a price. Also, Buffy enforces strong "flavor" constraints: spells typically require research in an occult library, followed by long rituals with elaborate ingredients, etc. And, for a true "plot device" spell, the director can require a rare alignment of the stars (or whatever); it's actually encouraged.

Lastly, even D&D touches on "plot device" magic with its long history of the twisted wish spell. That's magic at a price.

 

[mmadsen]

GURPS' alternate unlimited mana rules offer a surprisingly elegant solution: instead of providing spellcasters with a hard limit (whether in terms of fatigue points, power points, or spell slots), it gives them a soft limit they can cross -- with (random) consequences.

Also -- and this may sound trivial -- it gives spellcasters quite a bit of power, but power that does not return completely overnight. Much of the mundane nature of gaming magic is in its trivial cost.

For those not familiar with GURPS' unlimited mana rules, here is the intro:

Standard GURPS magic is "tactical;" mages can create dozens of small effects in a given day -- but very few (if any) world-shattering miracles. Manipulations of mana, the force behind spells, leaves sorcerers drained and weak. Thus, GURPS wizards are limited by their knowledge (which determines their flexibility) and their physical stamina. "Powerful" wizards are wizards that know more spells at higher levels than others.

Absent from this basic structure is the concept of Raw Power - wizards that can crack a castle in half or drown an army in flames.

Fantasy novels that feature such levels of power rarely have mages that get "tired out" by magic. Instead, extreme effects threaten the fabric of the universe, creating a situation in which wizards can create true miracles in times of need, but do not use their powers frivolously. When their companions ask for more magic, they will drone cryptically "To draw too deeply on my Gift can lead to madness and death. Do not demand of me what you do not comprehend."

Fantasy writers need character balance as much as GMs do. While it's exiting to establish that a sorcerer can wreak serious havoc when needed, it's boring to let him overshadow the rest of the characters. That cryptic doubletalk exists as a handy plot device, no less than the wizard himself.

This approach to magic has been left untouched in gaming, and for good reason. It's easy for a writer to create a wizard that will be prudent with his arcane wisdom. Trying to get an ambitious fantasy gamer (even a well-meaning one) to do the same is risky at best. GURPS has no such bounds, however. The magic system is flexible enough to permit Unlimited Mana that will balance in ANY fantasy campaign, even the lowest of "low fantasy!"

"To draw too deeply on my Gift can lead to madness and death. Do not demand of me what you do not comprehend."

 

[mmadsen]

Ravenloft offers a few interesting elements. Evil acts (and evil spells in particular) draw a Powers Check -- the Dark Powers may take notice and grant the evildoer a twisted boon to draw him down the Path of Corruption. (Star Wars has Dark Side points that achieve much the same thing.)

Curses have well spelled-out rules with bonuses for justification, a proper escape clause, etc.

Ravenloft also modifies many plot-crashing spells (most divinations, remove curse, etc.), forcing characters to do a little detective work, to quest for a cure to the curse or disease that plagues them, etc.

Ravenloft provides many examples of how to combine D&D magic with dramatic "plot device" magic. I love how Ravenloft's curses work.

Ravenloft's curses mix dramatic elements with game mechanics, giving penalties for less dramatic curses: a large penalty for mentioning game mechanics in the curse, another penalty for broad prohibitions (e.g. no spellcasting) rather than narrow (e.g. blinding headaches with every spell cast), another penalty for not tailoring the curse to the victim, another penalty for not including an "escape clause" (e.g. until kissed by a beautiful princess), etc. Naturally, there's a bonus for making a curse with your dying breath.

Rather than offering just one 3rd-level version of bestow curse (with bland effects: −6 to an ability; −4 on attacks, saves, and checks; or 50% chance of losing each action), Ravenloft gives examples of curses from embarrassing to lethal:

Embarrassing
Forked Tongue
Blackened Hands
Hair Turns White
Hungers for Raw Meat
etc.

Lethal
Torturous Death
Immediate Transformation into Monster
Must Kill Daily
etc.

You could make an entire spell system out of Ravenloft's curses.

 

[Hjorimir]

The way I've always said it is, "As a DM, you can write all the plot you want. It is the players, however, that will write the story."

Anyway, I also favor trying to make magic more, well, magical within D&D. It is no easy task. Most of us have been playing so long that we have become hopelessly jaded with fireballs and magic missiles. I even see fighters telling their wizard counterparts how to best cast spells for a given situation. Of course, I have to remind the fighter's player that they don't really have any training and shouldn't be telling magic users about magic at all.

But I digress. One of the major hurtles when toying with the magic system inherent to a D&D game is the rippling effects that has on game balance. Even a minor change, while seeming innocuous enough, can have untold repercussions on the delicate balance between the player characters and the opponents they face.

We’ve been giving the point system presented in Unearthed Arcana a run in my current game. While I think it has worked out okay (and has really toned down the use of evocation spells in favor of those that are more subtle…and cost less) I don’t think it has increased the ‘feel’ of magic in any way.

In my campaign, there are very few wizards (and very few places to gain spells). As a result, the player characters will have to research almost every spell they add to their books (including clerics, but I won’t get into that). This at least makes spells and the materials required to research them highly desirable and, therefore, special in the eyes of the players.

Another thing I am doing is encouraging the players to actually develop new spells unique to their characters. This will mean that the other players will not have any intrinsic knowledge of how such spells operate, which creates a sense of newness within the game. That is the theory, at least.

I would like to incorporate other unusual factors into magic, but haven’t come up with anything that doesn’t shift the balance too far (either for or against the player’s benefit). I have considered associating spells with celestial movements (and that would make a certain amount of sense within my game), but if feels awfully Dragonlance-cheesy to me (not to suggest I didn’t enjoy Dragonlance in its day, just that it is completely unoriginal in its conception).

Something I have toyed around with before and am considering using again is the impact of seasons upon a druid’s spell casting power. Briefly, all I did was associate the seasons with an aspect of magic. It seemed like summer was too strong (with all of the fire spells) when compared to the spells that were enhanced during the other seasons. Not a huge issue as I subsequently weakened the seasonal magic during the opposite season (i.e. summer spells being weaker during the winter months).

 

[mmadsen]

In Magic as Plot Device -- With Rules, JSpektr posited a dice-pool system (that element's peripheral) with the following features:

• for a particular spell, certain components increase the pool, such as a lock of hair for a curse, or medusa's blood for a petrification spell. The components should be hard to get.
• the spellcaster can store up extra dice by meditation, research, staring into the well of souls, etc. etc. Something non-adventury, and it takes a long time to get extra dice.
• the caster can overreach themselves, and take extra dice on "credit," hoping that they roll well. The extra dice, depending on what is rolled, either have an immediate negative effect, or come back later to haunt the caster.

In short, a mixture of power components and unlimited mana, with a few evocative details (medusa's blood, well of souls, etc.).

Patrick O'Duffy commented that he'd created a similar system for the Demon Player's Guide:

Characters can achieve small effects with their own immediate resources. Creating more impressive or useful effects requires the character to accept limitations or achieve specific sub-objectives - all of which are interesting to play out in-game.

That makes casting both tactically interesting and a good source of in-game fun.

 

[Gothmog]

So, for those who like lower magic games, for whatever reason (and in my experience, that's usually flavor) how do you see magic? Is it a plot device? Is it a PC tool, as in D&D, but a different kind?

I also use it as something between a plot device and tool. D&D magic is far too structured, predictable, and scientifically defined to feel anything like "magic" to me. I have done a few things in my campaign to return the "magical" feel to magic.

- I use incantations as per Unearthed Arcana.
- Spells 6th level and above are ritual spells that take at least 10 minutes to cast, and often days.
- All spellcasting requires a Spellcraft roll with a DC of 10 + 2(spell level +1). If the roll succeeds, the spell works as normal. If the spell fails bu 1-5, the spell works, but with unintended consequences. If it fails by 6 or more, the spell fails, and it if fails by 10 or more or if a natural 1 is rolled, there is a spell disaster.
- D&D doesn't reflect the mythic and literary themes of "forbidden knowledge". What I do is require a Will save any time a spell that could be considered forbidden knowledge is cast. These spells include such things as animate dead, enervation, dominate person, wish - basically spells that disrupt the natural order or forcibly compel someone against their will (the classic definition of black magic). The DC of the will save is equal to 10 + 2(spell level) + number of previous failed forbidden knowledge saves (which I call corruption points). Success means the spellcaster gets away with casting the spell this time. Failure means rolling on a table that has temporary or permanent consequences such as developing a phobia, physical alteration, ability score damage, or serious insanity. However, the more corruption points the caster accumulates, the more potent his forbidden knowledge spells become (every 2 corruption points add one effective caster level). This pretty much insures only desperate PCs or villains use this kind of magic, which is more in tune with legends.
- For magic item creation and many spells, I require specific material components to be used. Many of the D&D spell components are rather silly (5000 gp of diamond dust anyone?), so I swap out the huge monetary components with exceedingly rare ones (in the raise dead example, I might require the fingerbone of a saint or other holy relic of the cleric's religion who is casting raise dead). These items are never for sale, and require the PCs to specifically find components they will need for spellcasting or magic item creation.

 

[barsoomcore]

There's some really good ideas both here and in the Plot Device thread.

Magic in Barsoom is neither a plot device (that is, it IS bounded by consistent rules) nor a PC tool (that is, its use is not without consequences). Magic is a technology. A science, if you will, but one that affects the personality of those who study it.

Barsoom magic works on two Skills: Spellcraft (which describes a character's ability to channel and focus sorcerous energy) and a new skill Grasp Shadow (which describes a character's ability to draw sorcerous energy from the Shadow Realm). You need both skills in order to be a powerful sorcerer -- but the higher your ranks in Grasp Shadow, the more danger there is of slipping in madness.

Ideas stolen liberally from CoC, Dark Sun and Wheel of Time, of course.

Barsoom is really ABOUT magic, in a sense. The entire campaign grew out my thinking about what magic means, what it implies for civilization. Magical power (I've been down this road before, and don't expect much agreement on this point) is different in its fundamental nature from all forms of power we observe in our world. There's nothing like it here. It's vastly different from the power possessed by a politician, or a military commander, or even a madman with a gun. It cannot be taken away from the possessor. It cannot be "balanced" in the way technological power can be (matching nuclear warheads with each other to ensure nobody attacks anyone, for example). It is inherently destabilizing.

What sort of society would develop in a world where individual people can possess this kind of power? How would governments react? How would social structures evolve?

Equally important, what sort of people would get really good at magic? Why would they explore it? How would they react to others learning about it?

My thinking led me to the conclusion that ultimately, magic power favours paranoia in a way no familiar type of power does. The most paranoid will always win, eventually. And once they've won, the world becomes a very, very bad place, unless there exist some people who are willing to do very, very unpleasant things in order to put down the paranoiacs.

And that's Barsoom. The people doing the really horrible stuff, the ones who murder innocents for no apparent reason, who put entire villages to death, who torture, maim and kill with impunity -- those are the good guys. Drives my players batty.

 

[kamosa]

A lot of folks (myself included) often complain that magic in D&D doesn't feel anything like magic in the fantasy novels we know and love, and which are our inspiration for the game.

I've always found that to kind of be a straw man arguement. I mean, I don't find fighting, use of skills, or feats to match up very well with fantasy novels either. Yet, I never hear anyone say, "gee, I've never seen someone in a novel with power attack and great cleave." or "I've never read a novel where the main character took 20 great ax blows to the chest and walked away."


Spells, like feats and skills, are just representations of the spells in fantasy. The system evolved because it was popular and because it could sell more books, IE it's fun. At some level this is a game, and as such, obeys game rules not rules of writing.

 

[Desdichado]

One of the main reasons your setting intrigues me so much, BC. I think you espoused these principles on that classic SHARK thread on "epic gaming" or some such. One of my favorite threads we've had, in a lot of ways.

And Barsoom uses magic much the way my settings tend to -- it's rare, it's dark, those who are good at it are typically insane in one way or another, and it has a profound impact on society.

For example, in my latest campaign setting, there's a historical individual known to most (if at all) as simply the Necromancer, who mastered magic on a scale previously unknown. He become literally a god-like, immortal being. However, unknown to him (either that, or he simply didn't care, which is probably more likely) his use of magic not only corrupted his own form and sanity, but also the very fabric of magic itself.

He was only brought down by a cabal of wizards so desperate that they bargained with demon-princes to end his reign (although not his potent unlife; he's still lurking around nursing his strength). Naturally, bargains with demon-princes are always bad ideas, and upon the deaths of all the members of the cabal, not only are their souls sold to the demon-princes, but their souls are also used to fuel a gateway allowing demons to freely enter the mortal world and remake it in their image.

So the cleverest, and the most desperate, and most likely the craziest of all the cabal followed in the Necromancer's footsteps to cheat death and prevent the bargain from being fulfilled. Now, as a massive, insane and ruthless iron lich, he is the Monarch of the land in which the PCs operate. Because of the tainted, corrupted and polluted nature of magic, he ruthlessly hunts down any signs of the populace using it with the Inquisition. As the PCs come into conflict with his agenda, as they invariably will, they find themselves faced with the choice of ending the Iron Lich's reign of terror, which in turn frees the might of the demonlords to ravage the land, or they end up supporting him.

So I suppose magic plays the role of plot device in my backstory. The backstory also explains why some NPCs in particular have powers the PCs can't ever really hope to (unless they are willing to end up insane and undead, which they won't as long as I'm running the game) but the magic system itself, as a kind of kitbashed Call of Cthulhu meets Unearthed Arcana incantations hybrid, is a system that can be learned by the players and implemented as a tool.

Granted, it's not a reliable tool that they can use at will, but it's not really a plot device either, because it's completely at their disposal in terms of how and when they use it.