Scott DeWar
Prof. Emeritus-Supernatural Events/Countermeasure
intimidation could work, using strength insted of charisma.
Low Stats = A Thug?
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Sorrowdusk
First Post
Yeah but intimidation is a Charisma based skill. Thats the funny thing about it. I mean sure, I guess he could have just really practiced and put in the skill ranks, but if he isnt smart he wont have many skill points (although maybe that only means he concentrates what he does have to certain skills) and if he isnt charismatic (or at least average) he'll take a penalty to such skills.
But hey, saying you're gonna knife-face somebody while you got a knife in their face it doesnt take too much I guess.
And now that I think about it, I dont know that low stats=thug as much as they make me think 'henchman' or 'minion' or 'hireling'.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
I think the core problem to this question is really "what do the mental stats actually mean?"
The physical stats are pretty easy, an 18 Strength means you are the strongest man in town and can lift a ton of stuff. There are even charts for how much you can lift.
Mental stats? 3x SRD defined them pretty well, but what is the difference between 12 points and 14 points?
For Int, the assumption has always been that 1 point of INT = 10 points of IQ. Okay..... nice to know. But what does that translate into what the character can do?
Then to make it worse, game mechanics take it farther than the above definitions do, with the age old entangling of Charisma and Comeliness... and people being who they are, its easier to say a high Charisma makes the PC prettier. The PHB descriptions are better, but still don't give you a gradient.
I tried, but my google-fu failed me. I recall sometime in the hazy past a chart of the mental stats that had key markers at specific levels that indicate how to roleplay that score.
Something like; Int:
1: low animal intelligence, respond to instinct and urges. Cannot learn from past mistakes, no tactics other than rush in and fight to the death.
3: high animal intelligence, responds to instincts but can learn or be trained. Rudimentary tactics and ambushed.
5: Damaged or immature human, reacts instinctively, cannot learn to read and is limited to simple communication. Occasionally self-destructive due to lack of comprehension.
8: uneducated human, was not exposed to higher concepts or critical thinking skills. Tends to follow others.
etc...
{edit}
I found a portion, from the 1e AD&D monster manual lists the INT score, but it doesn't talk about roleplaying markers..
[sblock]
0 Non-intelligent or not ratable
1 Animal intelligence
2-4 Semi-intelligent
5-7 Low intelligence
8-10 Average (human) intelligence
11-12 Very intelligent
13-14 Highly intelligent
15-16 Exceptionally intelligent
17-18 Genius
19-20 Supra-genius
21+ Godlike intelligence
[/sblock]
The physical stats are pretty easy, an 18 Strength means you are the strongest man in town and can lift a ton of stuff. There are even charts for how much you can lift.
Mental stats? 3x SRD defined them pretty well, but what is the difference between 12 points and 14 points?
For Int, the assumption has always been that 1 point of INT = 10 points of IQ. Okay..... nice to know. But what does that translate into what the character can do?
Then to make it worse, game mechanics take it farther than the above definitions do, with the age old entangling of Charisma and Comeliness... and people being who they are, its easier to say a high Charisma makes the PC prettier. The PHB descriptions are better, but still don't give you a gradient.
I tried, but my google-fu failed me. I recall sometime in the hazy past a chart of the mental stats that had key markers at specific levels that indicate how to roleplay that score.
Something like; Int:
1: low animal intelligence, respond to instinct and urges. Cannot learn from past mistakes, no tactics other than rush in and fight to the death.
3: high animal intelligence, responds to instincts but can learn or be trained. Rudimentary tactics and ambushed.
5: Damaged or immature human, reacts instinctively, cannot learn to read and is limited to simple communication. Occasionally self-destructive due to lack of comprehension.
8: uneducated human, was not exposed to higher concepts or critical thinking skills. Tends to follow others.
etc...
{edit}
I found a portion, from the 1e AD&D monster manual lists the INT score, but it doesn't talk about roleplaying markers..
[sblock]
0 Non-intelligent or not ratable
1 Animal intelligence
2-4 Semi-intelligent
5-7 Low intelligence
8-10 Average (human) intelligence
11-12 Very intelligent
13-14 Highly intelligent
15-16 Exceptionally intelligent
17-18 Genius
19-20 Supra-genius
21+ Godlike intelligence
[/sblock]
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(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
IMO, each mental stat refers to, well, many things.
Intelligence would refer to both book smarts and street smarts. A character with a very high Int score has loads of both. On the other hand, you might have a character who is brilliant but has a short attention span; his Int is high, but not that high. Or you might have an absent-minded professor-type wizard who is greatly respected in the halls of academia but could be easily outmaneuvered by rivals in her mage tower; she has high Int but it's not sky-high.
Wisdom is pretty hard to define. I don't know why empty and perception fall under the same statl as hard to influence.
Charisma is a factor of at least three things: confidence, looks and voice. Probably a lot more. A person with a very low Charisma probably doesn't have any of the three. On the other hand, there might be someone who has a "magic voice" and does a good job selling stuff over the phone, but their face was scarred by a childhood illness -- moderate Charisma.
Intimidate is a multi-faceted skill, and it's hard to put a stat to it. Some people will get in your face, swinging their meaty fists an inch from your nose. Another character might put on a dextrous blade display, or just hold a dagger "too steadily" near you. Still another might threaten your family, proclaiming if you cross them your business will be burned to the ground, etc, and make you believe it. And others just bruise your self esteem, causing a surge of stress hormones with nowhere to go as they barrage you with shouts, insult your intelligence, etc (something a bad boss might do). Intimidate is practically impossible to attach to a statistic; WotC basically "defaulted" it to Charisma.
Intelligence would refer to both book smarts and street smarts. A character with a very high Int score has loads of both. On the other hand, you might have a character who is brilliant but has a short attention span; his Int is high, but not that high. Or you might have an absent-minded professor-type wizard who is greatly respected in the halls of academia but could be easily outmaneuvered by rivals in her mage tower; she has high Int but it's not sky-high.
Wisdom is pretty hard to define. I don't know why empty and perception fall under the same statl as hard to influence.
Charisma is a factor of at least three things: confidence, looks and voice. Probably a lot more. A person with a very low Charisma probably doesn't have any of the three. On the other hand, there might be someone who has a "magic voice" and does a good job selling stuff over the phone, but their face was scarred by a childhood illness -- moderate Charisma.
Intimidate is a multi-faceted skill, and it's hard to put a stat to it. Some people will get in your face, swinging their meaty fists an inch from your nose. Another character might put on a dextrous blade display, or just hold a dagger "too steadily" near you. Still another might threaten your family, proclaiming if you cross them your business will be burned to the ground, etc, and make you believe it. And others just bruise your self esteem, causing a surge of stress hormones with nowhere to go as they barrage you with shouts, insult your intelligence, etc (something a bad boss might do). Intimidate is practically impossible to attach to a statistic; WotC basically "defaulted" it to Charisma.
In my experience it's the high charisma characters who turn into thugs.
Sorry, did I say thugs? I meant con men.
In the real world, there are many very smart, charismatic "thugs" among the ranks of serial killers, sociopaths and psychos who do hurt-work for money...because they're getting paid to do what they love. You'll find them in organized crime as enforcers & hit-men; in secret police forces, militias and paramilitary groups as interrigators, assassins and intimidators.
Some do rise to leadership...most don't because it would restrict their freedom to indulge their darkest impulses.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
Indeed the stats refer to a ton of things, which is one reason why tying a roleplaying marker to a specific score is difficult.
But I disagree with some of what you stated, to me its as simple as:
Int = what you know and ability to learn
Wis = how well you can apply what you know to the external environment
Chr = how well you can control yourself in an attempt to alter anothers behaviour. Which of course also means being aware of how the other perceives you.
Street smarts under these definitions is primarily Wis, taking what you know and applying it to the circumstances at hand.
Intimidate would be Chr based as you are taking what you can perceive of the others view of you and adjusting your actions to alter thier perception...either by waving a fist under thier nose or muttering arcane words... what matters is judging how they view your actions and guessing how they will react
None of these have anything to do with looks. I would almost rather an additional stat of Comeliness be brought in that is rolled by itself to cover that concern, or leave it up to the player to decide how 'pretty' the character is.
Idiot Savants would be high INT, low Wis and Chr.
Thugs could be any range of stats, but would tend to be low WIS as they tend to have a shorter view of future consequences.
I still can't find those tables...
The problem with comeliness(or appearance) is that in a multi-racial environment it is highly subjective. Or to put it another way, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." 
(nothing to do with eye tyrant there)
Your physical appearance would only really apply to other members of the same culture. For example, facial scarring might mark you out as ugly in one culture, and physically attractive in another. (as a sign of strength perhaps?)
(nothing to do with eye tyrant there)Your physical appearance would only really apply to other members of the same culture. For example, facial scarring might mark you out as ugly in one culture, and physically attractive in another. (as a sign of strength perhaps?)
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I have seen (somewhere) a chart that places Charisma to social level, the higher the CHR the higher the character was in social ranking. Each social level had benefits and drawbacks, such as not being jailed for murder.
The simple answer is that it isn't low (mental) stats equals thug, so much as low (mental) stats yields thug.
Other things may also yield thug, and it doesn't go the other way (thug implies low mental stats).
But it's correlation, not causation...
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/297570-thugs-angels.html
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/297570-thugs-angels.html
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