D&D 5E Lvl 14 rogue vs. (lvl 14) red dragon

[ashockney]

I loved the handling that Dungeon World established in the advice guide which was found here on ENWorld, recently.

Before a halfling rogue can ENGAGE a giant dragon, what must it overcome?
GENIUS - Many of the dragons are considered "genius" level, and even when not, they are considered the most skilled alpha-hunters atop the food chain - which means their location, security, and escape methods (terrain advantage) is paramount
MINIONS - None more easily can acquire the allegiance, following, and morale-spooked fire of humanoids, monsters, and even divine wielders
FEAR - the overwhelming nature and nurture that hardwires you to RUN in the opposite direction, enhanced by their magical might and leveraging all their amazing talents
FLIGHT - the ability to even approach "on foot" the types of fatastic locations a sword and sorcery dragon would rest, and lord over it's hordes of gold and minions.
SENSES - as documented, their amazing senses, and lightning reflexes - combined with -
SIZE - more enormous than any other creature in the world (akin to our dinosaurs) - in conjunction with their senses and superior might, makes even APPROACHING the creature a deadly proposition, in which you expose yourself to untold threat
MIGHT - their superior strength and reach - tail slap, wing buffett, reaching bite, claws, and immense body - too many to overcome, and too powerful to human means to defend
-scariest of all-
BREATH - perhaps the single most powerful ranged destructive delivery of energy known in the world of medieval swoard and sorcery

How exactly will you contend with these things BEFORE you even attempt to ENGAGE in a melee or ranged strike to the mighty beast? In Dungeon World you have many skill checks with soft (or hard) move reactions for failure, before the battle ensues. I believe these effects could be translated to D&D of any edition, certainly?

 

[B.T.]

In 4e, it's very hard to get a bonus to Stealth (in order to keep invisibility balanced; the crazy +20 to +40 bonuses you got for being invisible in 3.x broke that - I don't even like those powers that give you +4 Stealth), so dragons don't really need special senses like their 3.x blindsense.

A dragon's senses are so much more than having a high skill check. Trying to turn the ability to sense invisible creatures, see in the dark, and sniff out their prey into a numeric value is foolish, and it is yet another reason that the 3e/4e gameplay paradigm needs to collapse.

 

[Klaus]

A dragon's senses are so much more than having a high skill check. Trying to turn the ability to sense invisible creatures, see in the dark, and sniff out their prey into a numeric value is foolish, and it is yet another reason that the 3e/4e gameplay paradigm needs to collapse.

Nah. All those things boil down to one word: Blindsense. Just give the dragon blindsense to a range of X feet (say, 100 feet), and the dragon, through a combinarion of exceptional eyesight, keen hearing, vulture-like sense of smell and snake-like heat detection, can beat most methods of sneaking about.

So, three things I would give to true dragons:

- Blindsense, at least within their lairs.
- Instinctive Action: at its initiative count +10, the dragon takes an action determined by its type. This lets the dragon act even if it loses initiative.
- Bloodied Breath: when the dragon reaches half of its hp, it uses its breath weapon. This makes sure the dragon's signature move is emplyed at least twice in a fight, regardless of recharge rolls.

 

[ashockney]

Klaus

I think you're on it, man!

I love the use of Blindsense, Instinctive Action, and Bloodied Breath. Precisely the kind of "D&D" mechanics that help weave this powerful antagonist into the fabric of this great game. What would be some of those other representative conditions?
GENIUS, MINIONS, FEAR, FLIGHT, SIZE, and MIGHT?
I also think, as you've drawn conclusion with your suggestion, that the consequences of failure in discovering and engaging a powerful dragon should be devastating.

 

[Klaus]

Klaus

I think you're on it, man!

I love the use of Blindsense, Instinctive Action, and Bloodied Breath. Precisely the kind of "D&D" mechanics that help weave this powerful antagonist into the fabric of this great game. What would be some of those other representative conditions?
GENIUS, MINIONS, FEAR, FLIGHT, SIZE, and MIGHT?
I also think, as you've drawn conclusion with your suggestion, that the consequences of failure in discovering and engaging a powerful dragon should be devastating.

Let's see...

GENIUS - Dragons, even if not genius per se, are extremely long lived, with very good memory (remembers every coin of its hoard, I hear say). So remember the times when the DM plays down a creature's tactics because they're not that bright? This is not one of those times. The dragon recognizes what each PC can do, who's a great warrior, who's a spellcaster, takes down the healer first, etc.

MINIONS - Doesn't need to be factored in the stat block. Fill the area around the lair with whichever creatures fit the region. They're either in league with the dragon, or want to stop the PCs from angering the beast even further.

FEAR - I don't particularly like giving dragons a fear aura, as I think they're frightful enough. But if I had to give it such a power, it'd be something along these lines:
Fearsome: Enemies that haven't acted before the dragon takes its first turn must succeed on a DC X Wisdom or Charisma saving throw or move 100 feet away from the dragon, or until the dragon is out of sight (whichever comes first).

FLIGHT - Obviously, all true dragons have fly speeds. Coupled with its breath weapon, a dragon in the open can simply do strafing runs and wear down its opponents. To have a chance against a dragon, one has to negate flight, usually by fighting the dragon indoors (typically in its lair, where its Blindsense would make up for the loss of Flight).

SIZE - I'd give the dragon the Bruiser trait (guaranteeing Str modifier damage in case its physical attack misses) and give it a tail attack that works as an area attack that deals damage and pushes enemies back. Enemies can choose not to be knocked back, and instead fall prone. Or maybe a trait that pushes enemies back (and/or deals damage) when they hit the dragon, from the thrashing of the beast's enormous bulk.

MIGHT - By giving the dragon reactions based on its hit points dropping, you guarantee that it will fight fiercely. The more the PCs trounce the dragon, the harder it fights back. Imagine if the PCs surprise the dragon and drop half of its hit points in a single round? The dragon will take its Instinctive Action, use its Bloodied Breath and take its actions, giving the PCs as good as it's getting.

 

[ashockney]

Yes, I love it Klaus!

Genius - do you need to play this up? Well why not...something like "Killer Instinct" or "Weakest Link" - all attacks the dragon deals also deal half damage to a healer of their choosing. Primary attack: caster; Secondary attack: healer - devastating, deadly, and you're always and suddenly on your heels. I could also see this played up as a "we thought we had you where we wanted..." effect for surprise. Something like "Turn the Tables" when you are attacked in combat you may trigger a defense/utility action such as flight/teleport/illusion effect. At the highest levels, why not both?

Minions - and how do you draw them in - or even prevent attack on the dragon with them. I'm reminded of the 1e Demon/Devil summoning powers. Built right in to ensure they're never, ever cornered and undermanned in a battle. Even novice DM's will know to pull them in - and this could be baked into their CR (akin to a solo). I could also see at higher levels how their followers may grant additional actions on the dragon's turn including healing, spellcasting defenses/counters, stepping in the way of attacks, and of course, unexpected counter attacks.

FEAR - love it. You can't even GET here without overcoming your fear. If you do, perhaps a shaken effect?

FLIGHT - yes, a special attack to allow for attacks against a large area, with a tremendous defensive advantage (fast moving speed, high out of range) - I would see this as a primary advantage (combined with FEAR) that would allow a dragon complete combat superiority over a battlefield, unless they find themselves in the most devastating ambush, or perhaps most challenge epic heroes. Reigning destruction in it's wake, not just on the initial breath, but lingering energy that will continue to cause damage over time - fires burning, acid boiling, poison drifting...`

SIZE - yes! Love it. Bruiser = yes. Knockback = yes. Knockdown = yes. Even the sheer ability to simply grapple and reduce actions of your opponents.

MIGHT - agreed. Keep going. Imagine the power from the strike a dragon's bite! It's massive jaws could crush ANY mortal armor, shield, or weapon used to defend themselves. I think each strike in battle with a dragon should REDUCE the effectiveness of your defenses AND constantly cause you to feel imperiled of losing your most valuable and powerful magical items. Only an artifact could withstand the onslaught of an ancient red's mighty bite!

Now THAT is a dragon, my friend. And this could EASILY be a 5e dragon, with a few simple modifications. The battle with a lone halfling could be very, very different.

 

[JamesonCourage]

A dragon's senses are so much more than having a high skill check. Trying to turn the ability to sense invisible creatures, see in the dark, and sniff out their prey into a numeric value is foolish, and it is yet another reason that the 3e/4e gameplay paradigm needs to collapse.

Well, you could employ darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, tremorsense, scent, etc. Those all fit in the 3.Xe system. My RPG system was based on 3.X, and while I changed a lot (including basic traits), I don't see how these base traits don't fill the role you want. As always, play what you like

 

[Retreater]

Thread necromancy returns.
Just amazing how true this example still is. Even though we got rid of skill dice after D&D Next, D&D 5e monsters are still basically pushovers.
I wonder if anyone has tried to recreate this historic battle using 5e's mechanics?