Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
M.A.R. Barker, author of Tekumel, also author of Neo-Nazi book?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="mythago" data-source="post: 8578866" data-attributes="member: 3019"><p>Yes, the principle is - at best - flawed. Even when used in good faith, it is a rhetorical sleight-of-hand, appropriating the very high standard necessary to procure a <em>criminal conviction</em> and demanding that we should not believe a thing to be true unless that standard is met.</p><p></p><p>"Innocent until proven guilty", in a criminal court, really means "innocent until proven guilty <em>beyond a reasonable doubt</em>". That high standard exists because the State is attempting to judge someone as having committed a crime, and to be subject to deprivation of their liberty and property. The standard of proof in <em>civil </em>courts of law is nowhere near that harsh - even in lawsuits for millions of dollars, the burden of proof is "by a preponderance of the evidence", also expressed as "more likely than not" or "a little more than 50%".</p><p></p><p>I don't think it's an accident that in discussions like this, especially when the argument is against judging someone's actions, the standard thrown out is "innocent until proven guilty". Doing so evokes a whole set of cultural tropes about the need to protect the accused, the risk of consequences for judgment, and the huge pile of evidence that we demand before we accept something as true when we'd really rather not. Imagine instead saying "I really would want a preponderance of the evidence showing this is true." Just doesn't have the same, all-about-the-principles, Atticus Finch kinda oomph to it, eh?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="mythago, post: 8578866, member: 3019"] Yes, the principle is - at best - flawed. Even when used in good faith, it is a rhetorical sleight-of-hand, appropriating the very high standard necessary to procure a [I]criminal conviction[/I] and demanding that we should not believe a thing to be true unless that standard is met. "Innocent until proven guilty", in a criminal court, really means "innocent until proven guilty [I]beyond a reasonable doubt[/I]". That high standard exists because the State is attempting to judge someone as having committed a crime, and to be subject to deprivation of their liberty and property. The standard of proof in [I]civil [/I]courts of law is nowhere near that harsh - even in lawsuits for millions of dollars, the burden of proof is "by a preponderance of the evidence", also expressed as "more likely than not" or "a little more than 50%". I don't think it's an accident that in discussions like this, especially when the argument is against judging someone's actions, the standard thrown out is "innocent until proven guilty". Doing so evokes a whole set of cultural tropes about the need to protect the accused, the risk of consequences for judgment, and the huge pile of evidence that we demand before we accept something as true when we'd really rather not. Imagine instead saying "I really would want a preponderance of the evidence showing this is true." Just doesn't have the same, all-about-the-principles, Atticus Finch kinda oomph to it, eh? [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
M.A.R. Barker, author of Tekumel, also author of Neo-Nazi book?
Top