M&M: How does a villain get a word in edge-wise?

[Ben Robbins]

Fair enough. I actually considered GM Expediting the Fun for Everyone at the Table...

I recall that name getting roundly mocked during during playtesting... oh wait! My NDA!

 

[Ben Robbins]

In the "Fiat's not Cheating" vein, there are really two kinds of Fiat: within the rules and outside the rules.

If you let a villain have a virtual hero point and re-roll a save, well you are just using the same rules the heroes use with their hero points. It shouldn't feel like cheating at all, since the heroes get a point in return and balance is maintained. The rules governing combat etc are still totally in effect.

"Outside the rules" fiats are things like making heroes automatically fail a save to advance the plot, having the mastermind that just got tackled turn out to be an android (oops, mandroid) or otherwise escape for free.

I find that "outside the rules" Fiat works much better if you don't even pretend you are operating within the rules of the combat system or anything like it. Just flat out say to the players: this is a plot transition, that's why it's happening. Most players are fine with some forced plot so long as the distinction is clear between the parts that they can influence and parts they can't.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I'm also still not sold on the idea of GM fiat... I don't care if it is in the rules, it still feels like cheating to me.

I feel the same way. Which is why I have a bit of a problem with M&M, that and hero points it seems like the game is heavily skewed towards the players. As someone who comes from a HERO/CHAMPIONS background it really goes counter to what I'm used to in a supers game.

Also it feels like the Villians can never truly flat out win vs. the heroes WITHOUT GM fiat, which is crap. I mean I've been reading superhero comics since I was 6, I'm 35 now and there have been plenty of times where the Villain is simply BETTER or more powerful than the heroes. In M&M with enough hero points, the heroes can beat or escape defeat from most anyone and that's really the part that doesnt ring true for me.

That, and the fact that M&M is also a game. If the outcome is already heavily skewed toward the heroes then what's the point? A narrative constructed for entertainment value is one thing, but as a new GM running M&M I really found that my enjoyment was pretty much limited because A) I had two munchkin players who totally twinked out their characters and B) the system seems designed to give a game advantage to the players.
Personally, I like it when my players have to work for thier victory and not have it assumed that they are going to win in the end.

 

[Jim Hague]

Fair enough. I actually considered GM Expediting the Fun for Everyone at the Table but it didn't fit quite as well as a section header as GM Fiat.

Hah, true. It's a bit of a mouthful. I really consider it 'cheating for the players' - which includes the GM. In the wrong hands, it can really screw a game up, but that's a meta issue that a rulebook can't really address.

 

[Jim Hague]

I feel the same way. Which is why I have a bit of a problem with M&M, that and hero points it seems like the game is heavily skewed towards the players. As someone who comes from a HERO/CHAMPIONS background it really goes counter to what I'm used to in a supers game.

See, I don't see it that way. In MnM, there's a clear and defined mechanism involved...and HPs are there to help players avoid the randomness inherent in the system.

Also it feels like the Villians can never truly flat out win vs. the heroes WITHOUT GM fiat, which is crap. I mean I've been reading superhero comics since I was 6, I'm 35 now and there have been plenty of times where the Villain is simply BETTER or more powerful than the heroes. In M&M with enough hero points, the heroes can beat or escape defeat from most anyone and that's really the part that doesnt ring true for me.

Take a look at some of the high-end villains, then. Guys like Omega (from Freedom City) are going to be tough for an entire group to take on, just because of PL. Villains at the same PL are going to provide variable challenge, depending on the group and the number of PPs involved in their totals. You're grousing over something HERO has problems with as well - a villain built singly on the same point cost as a single hero is going to go down like a punk against a group that totals multiples of their own cost. That's why you see things like the Villain Bonus in there - to even the odds.

That, and the fact that M&M is also a game. If the outcome is already heavily skewed toward the heroes then what's the point? A narrative constructed for entertainment value is one thing, but as a new GM running M&M I really found that my enjoyment was pretty much limited because A) I had two munchkin players who totally twinked out their characters and B) the system seems designed to give a game advantage to the players.
Personally, I like it when my players have to work for thier victory and not have it assumed that they are going to win in the end.

That's a stylistic thing - there's nothing in the rules that say you can't make it grittier or tougher on the players. Your problems with twinked out characters could have happened in any system - that's a GM control issue. Likewise, it's a GM control issue regarding the flow of Hero Points. There's nothing there slanted towards the heroes, since the villains can do exactly the same things; if nothing else, villains have a bit of an advantage, since they can break the normal PL limits (see the creating NPCs advice) and make use of GM's Fiat.

 

[lukelightning]

Easy. Use DM fiat and bribe the players with hero points.

"The villain reveals himself out from hiding and his sudden appearance shocks you all for a moment (you get a hero point if you play along and let me do his shpeel)..."

 

[Victim]

GM Fiat has the same role on their side of the table that Hero points have for players. If you feel like it's cheating, then switch back to the hard constraint of a set number of villains points for you to spend. PCs get HP when you fiat, so it's not they have much to complain about for the occasional use.

And really, forgot about system specific stuff. If you have 5 guys teamed up against 1 guy, and each person is roughly equivalent, then things are usually going to be an easy win for the 5 guys. 5 10th level guys in DnD versus 1 10th level fighter and some low level flunkies will be over even more quickly.

If you want challenging foes without too high a PL, you need to stack the deck a bit. Create a situation that favors the foe. Remember that PL isn't really correlated to power points, so the foe could have lots of tasty extras on his powers. Area and Aura are especially good when someone who is going to be outnumbered, since one can affect every PC and the other works when people attack him - making the PCs' extra number of actions into something of mixed blessing. Impervious can help too, but it can also be really frustrating for certain players. Pick on weak saves.

Or use villain team ups.

 

[hong]

Apropos of nothing, I'd just like to say that it's a good thing General Motors got rid of Fiat, or things could have got REALLY confusing.

 

[Wraith Form]

GM Fiat has the same role... *SNIP* ...villain team ups.

Y'know, for a victim he's pretty smart.

 

[Keeper of Secrets]

GM Fiat is not so bad. I have been running the game every Friday for a few years now and it has been a blast. My players don't mind the GM Fiat but if you feel like its cheating . . .

Don't be afraid to use the villain points for rerolls.

Of course, returning to the GM Fiat point, if it makes you feel better consider this: would you rather use the GM Fiat which feels like cheating or 'cheat' your players out of a fun evening by having the villain go down in the first round?