Mage Killer Bags

[BaldHero]

I have what i think is a very good idea, but want to get feedback on it before i use it against my players. Their enemy knows their strengths, and so has had time to prepare for a confrontation, not to mention has practice taking down others with similar skills. One of the tools my villain will use when he attacks is something i made up called a magekiller bag.
it is essentially a tanglefoot bag with a silence spell worked into it. An attacker targets a mage, who usually have among the lowest touch attack armor classes, and then flings the bag. If he hits, it may or may not entangle, as normal, but just like a regular tanglefoot bag it forces concentration checks from casters, and in addition the silence effect goes off at the same time. The goo is the target of the effect, not the victim, so that there is no save involved, and the effect radiates twenty feet in all directions from where the bag landed. If the target is missed, he or she may still have to move to cast. A combo hit that attacks the casters concentration, mobility and probably his outright effectiveness in any given fight. Does this sound as though it is a fair weapon to introduce to the game? Obviously my players could then reverse engineer such an item, given the proper feats, so i want to know if it sounds like it might be unbalancing in the long run.

 

[SeaWolf]

I personally like the idea of the item as a whole, I'd use it. The players should be able to counteract the item(given time), so I can't see where it would unbalance anything. I say go for it.

Sea

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I'd say no don't do it for two reaosns.

1. when reverse engenered it will make every spellcasting opponent from now on useless as an advesary, since the party would be foolish to n0ot have aq bunch on hand at all times.

2. The use will make the mage useless in what probably is supposed to be a climatic encounter, with really no chance of the mage solving the problem, and at no fault of the mages(IOW he didnt do something dumb, or heck he didn't even fail a save which is at least a booched roll so he's at least tkaing some action to defend himself). All in all the mage player just minds as well not even show up that session, he will be blindingly inefective and will likely be very bored.

I think a better method would be for the opponent to cast silence on the tanglefoot bag in the fight. This gives the mage a chance to do something if he recognizes the spell.

 

[THEBIGLOU]

I think a tangle foot bag with a permanent Silence would cost a nice sum for a one shot disposable item... So even if you players were able to reverse engineer it say if it cost 5-10K gold pieces....would it still be a problem?

Of coerce the thing they can do today is have one player hold the tangle foot bag and ready an action (or delay) until the wizard cast silence on the TF bag. Much cheaper in gp, but it cost actions.

btw, nice idea!!

THEBIGLOU

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

What I have a problem with is on what is centered the silence if the object it was centered on breaks?

Say you cast silence on a vase, and smash the vase. What happens to the silence? Is it cancelled? Is it now stationary? Is it now centered on the biggest shard?

Also, the BBEG carrying the trapped tanglefoot bag will be silenced (or silence will manifest itself once the bag is taken out of a closed-lid receptacle).

I don't know at which level the characters are, but there are a few ways for the wizard to get out of this (assuming the silence is still centered on the goo). Dispel magic (from another caster), using wands (they can be used in Silenced areas, right?), freedom of movement. Also, the wizards are usually the ones at the back of the group, so the BBEG will probably suffer some cover to-hit penalties (50% from being directly behind someone the same size as you).

AR

 

[Otterscrubber]

Dirty, I like it. With the silent spell feat, this is beatable. Obviously for this encounter that feat will only be useful if you have a sorcerer or bard to do it, but any classes that have to memorize spells will take it into consideration in the future. This is one of those ideas that makes fights really interesting and forces players to think outside of what they normally do. True the casters may not be effective for part of the fight, or maybe even all of it, but that is why we travel in groups, right?

If your group is low level I would say this is too dirty, but if they are mid to high level then this should present an interesting challenge that hopefully they will enjoy working through.

As far as them using it in the future against your foes, as DM you can always make these things hard to make if you dont want your PCs mass producing these items. I can see this type of weapon being used by some secret mage killer type of guild or assasins or even professional kidnappers.

 

[Vaxalon]

I would say that if an object that has a spell cast on it breaks (such as a tanglefoot bag) then the spell ends.

This can be easily evaded by casting the silence on a stone that is then stick it to the bag. In order to be rid of the silence, the mage has to get rid of the stone.... which is a lot easier than scraping off all of the goo from the tanglefoot bag, but not trivial, either.

It also takes longer to prepare it this way, too; when the PC's see the silence spell cast, and the stone shoved inside the bag, they'll know what's coming the next round, and will have time to try to counteract it.

 

[jgsugden]

I've been using this tactic against PCs for a long time. An organization of assassins have been using silence (via Use Magic Device or a cleric's imbuement) and tanglefoot bags since 3.0 came out. This is an effective tactic at a reasonable cost.

If you're worried about the bag destruction ending the magical silence effect, place the silence effect on something attached to the bag. The tanglefoot goo will hold it in place once it hits the target.

To prevent this from becoming too powerful of an effect, either introduce it in an easy battle or let the PCs find out about the tactic before it is used upon them. If they take the proper precautions, this tactic can be overcome.

Also note that no concentration check is required for casting unless the character is bound (stuck) to the floor.

Some good PC defenses:
1.) The Silent Spell Feat
2.) The vocalize spell (a 2E spell designed to deal with silence)
3.) High Touch ACs
4.) Maintaining a good distance from foes using the bags (10' range increment)
5.) Using area of effect spells to remove the goo (the rules do not cover it, but a fireball should probably do a good job of negaing the goo)
6.) Flight. YOu can't stick to the ground if you don't touch it.

 

[silentspace]

I also use it, and I don't see anything wrong with it. It's not really that powerful a tactic. It harasses more than anything else. There's the range issue. And there's Shield and Protection from Arrows. And most spellcasters will hide behind the other party members, giving them 50% cover to begin with. As far as I'm concerned, this should be an obvious and expected tactic.

 

[XCorvis]

You could also try combining a tanglefoot bag with a thunderstone for a purely alchemical version. There would be multiple saves, but it would really mess with their spellcasters (what with being deaf and stationary and all...)