Mage Slayer revised.

[Thanee]

Yep, much better than the original.

I would have simply changed Mage Slayer to being able to make an AoO even against someone casting defensively (is that the epic feat? I recall something like that...). That's a powerful benefit, but not as silly as the original feat.

Well, one thing I'm curious about: why is it so bad that a caster not be able to cast defensively?

My main gripe with it is, that it is simply stupid. Why should someone with a special training to interrupt spellcasters make it impossible for them to 'dodge and weave' during spellcasting? Are they suffering from spontaneous paralysis or something just by trying to cast a spell in that one's vincinity!? Why does everyone standing around get a shot at the mage suddenly, when a spell is being cast?

Also, while they cannot make Concentration checks, they still can concentrate on their spellcasting just fine. There isn't even a penalty (other than the AoO, of course, which also allows Concentration to be used as normal).

Mage Slayer should make it more difficult to concentrate, that's fine, or allow the one with the feat to make an AoO regardless of defensive casting.

Bye
Thanee

 

[IndyPendant]

Hmm! Actually, Thanee, that's a great idea! I think I may alter my feat. How about this, then:

Mage Slayer [General]
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Casters threatened by you suffer a -4 penalty to any Concentration checks they make to cast on the defensive, and you may make an attack of opportunity on that caster if they try to cast on the defensive.

 

[Thanee]

I'd always add some ranks in Spellcraft (like 4) as a prerequisite. It's quite a powerful feat and deserves some non-trivial prerequisite, and it also makes a lot of sense.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

Personally I would prefer something that is much more proactive.

Such as this:

Mageslayer (general)
You have experience with casters and know how they move to avoid aoo's. Sometimes you are able to anticipate these movements.
Prereqs: 1 rank of spellcraft
Benefit: Whenever someone attempts to cast defensively within your threatened area you may make a spellcraft check with DC of the opponents concentration check. If you succeed then you may make an aoo on them as normal. You recieve a +4 bonus to this check.

Penalty: your caster level is reduced by 2.
Special: you may choose this feat as a fighter bonus feat. You may also take this feat more than once. Each extra time adds a +4 bonus to the check and reduces your caster level by an additional 2.


This means it takes extra resources from the character and it is something that they are 'trained' to do rather than some mystical force which pops out to do things that feat generally cannot do.


Failing that however the feat proposed by the op is 'incredibly' strong. At most I would limit it to half BAB. That would make the check more difficult without making it impossible. Along with making the casters feat investment be able to cancel the feat to a higher degree.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Hi Scion!

I like the mechanic that lets you get the AoO instead of making the caster's concentration check an autofail.

That said, why the -2 penalty to caster level?

If you are a caster yourself, you should be better able to anticipate how other casters move to avoid AoOs. That's reflected in the fact that spellcraft is a class skill. But why should this training interfere with your own spellcasting?

If there is a kind of "hatred of magic" kind of theme going on (someone wanting to get a forsaker flavor to his barbarian) then I could see the penalty to CL, but I don't think the spellcraft check fits. Joe the mage-hating barbarian shouldn't have to invest that many skill points into Spellcraft.

I think the main effect of the caster level penalty in the original feat was to make it attractive to non-spellcasters. But if you make it a spellcraft check (a cross-class skill for non-spellcasters) then it is suddenly a lot less useful. Spellcasters still won't take it, I don't think, since it means they kinda have to take Practiced Spellcaster. I'm not sure that taking the AoO is worth the investment of two feats.

 

[Scion]

Mainly because I dont want clerics to get yet another beanie to add to their arsenal

Having ranks in spellcraft is beneficial even without this feat, it allows you to know what is going on around you without needing input from other casters.

The extra +4 is tacked on to allow for classes which normally have a hard time getting it.

Plus, one could take this feat and take practiced spellcaster and still be a gish with some extra items piled on top. Which is why I reduced it from 4 to 2.

With the +4 bonus there seemed to need to be 'some' sort of extra penalty, otherwise it would be rather incredibly strong.

In this case it means that spellcasters would need to spend an extra feat..almost a built in 'prereq' in a way. But noncasters, like a fighter, wouldnt suffer from that penalty.

 

[IndyPendant]

Don't fool yourself.

No gish will *EVER* take a feat that allows a dubious, minor, and situational combat benefit--and imposes a -2 caster level! I mean, would a tank every take this feat if it offered as 'balance' -2 BAB? That's what you're doing to spellcasters by tacking on that penalty.

And I don't see how the benefit is too powerful. Basically, what it is doing is allowing a fighter to take a feat to have a better (*not* 100%) chance to do damage to and interrupt a spellcaster when that caster is threatened. The spellcaster still, in most cases, can just 5' step and bang! instant safe casting.

I've always had trouble with the concept that, after about 8th level or so, it is basically utterly impossible for a fighter to stop a caster from casting even one spell. About the only tactic that has a chance of working is to ready an action to step (if necessary) and attack if his opponent castS--and even then, a) the fighter sacrifices iterative attacks to do so, b) he can only select one caster if there is more than one, c) he has to hit the caster, and d) the caster still gets a concentration check--which is usually quite high by then--to succeed in the spell. Even a grapple, by that level, only causes the caster to cast his DD earlier than anticipated to escape, with a (usually-by-then) autosuccess concentration check. Done.

Let me ask you this: how often do noncasters try to interrupt spellcasting beyond, say, level 10 in your campaigns? I'm betting it's quite rare--and often fails when tried.

Again, it gets back to the fact that casting in the middle of melee is so durned easy, it's become accepted in people's minds as a 'right' of the caster. I don't think it should be, anymore than it's a 'right' of archers to shoot in the middle of melee (no concentration checks for them, note!)

Also, if you require spellcraft checks to ID the spell before the fighter can do anything...just don't bother offering the feat. No one except the mathematically challenged is going to take it. Only the cleric as a melee class could take Spellcraft as a class skill. Which means that, since the DC starts at 15 and increases per spell level, suddenly the Fighter has at best a 50/50 chance of even getting an attack on a caster he threatens in melee (something that would happen a lot more rarely than, say, doing +2 damage per hit already!)--and that only if he dumps an entire stack of his very limited class skill points into an otherwise-utterly-useless skill for him. The +4 bonus suggested doesn't help--because the fighter's burning more feats just to enhance very slightly, what I've already established is already a very limited benefit. And no gish would take the feat because of the penalty to caster level.

The feat is useless.

No, upon further thought, here is how I will present the feat for my players, unless someone can counter my points:

Mage Slayer [General]
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Spellcasters you threaten gain a -4 penalty to all concentration checks they make. You may make an AoO on any casters you threaten that attempt to cast on the defensive.

 

[Thanee]

Still think you should add a Spellcraft requirement. A 'Mage Killer' trained to disrupt spellcasting should know a little about spells. Really!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

Don't fool yourself.

No gish will *EVER* take a feat that allows a dubious, minor, and situational combat benefit--and imposes a -2 caster level! I mean, would a tank every take this feat if it offered as 'balance' -2 BAB? That's what you're doing to spellcasters by tacking on that penalty.

One of us is fooling themselves, but it isnt me

The feat I proposed is very powerful, it allows you to do something that normally you could not do and it could completely ruin another players turn.

Maybe it will only work once per combat, but for that once you have a chance to not only do extra damage where you could not before but you also get the chance to make a caster lose their spell.


Also, 5' step is not always the answer, often it simply cannot be used. Especially if you want to use a touch range power. What if the opponent has reach?

But even then, why would you take that 5' step if you thought you were basically safe from having the aoo happen? If you can make the check 95% of the time why place yourself in a potentially lesser position when you could simply take the check?

That is what this feat is supposed to be, forcing tactical choices with one characters benefit potentially overriding anothers. That is exactly what the original feat 'fails' to do, and it fails even more miserably in doing something that feats should not be able to do, it takes away someone elses ability with them having no way of countering it or having the normal check get around it somehow.


The feat as originally written is poorly balanced, the one posed by the original poster is horribly unbalanced.

At least the one I posted actually gives the character an ability that he has direct use over, instead of something that is more of a supernatural ability that does effectively nothing for him directly.

 

[Thanee]

I like the mechanic that lets you get the AoO instead of making the caster's concentration check an autofail.

Gaining an AoO even against defensive casting is much better than that stupid stuff WotC printed (as explained somewhere above ). But Scion's feat is really WAY too weak. A waste of time, noone will ever take this, except for the most obscure builds. The high Spellcraft requirement makes it only really useful for spellcasters, while the caster level penalty makes it useless for spellcasters, which leaves noone to take it.

Bye
Thanee