Magic for sale?

[Mouseferatu]

In my thread about what people miss from older editions, one of the responses was:

the ability to give out huge piles of wealth to players without breaking the game.

That sort of surprised me, honestly. Sure, giving out gobs of treasure breaks the game--if you feel beholded to allow the PCs to go out and buy magic items.

Maybe it's just me, since I tend to run games that are slightly lower-magic than normal, but I have never run a campaign where a PC can just go out and buy a magic sword or bracers of armor, and only sometimes do my campaigns even have places where you can buy potions and low-level scrolls.

To my mind, while it works in some specific settings, for the most the ability to walk out and buy magic is bad for the campaign. There's far more story potential in "Oh, crap, there's a powerful demon loose in the city, and only holy weapons can injure him. We need to quest for a holy sword!" than there is in "Oh, crap, there's a powerful demon loose in the city, and only holy weapons can injure him. Let's hop on down to Haste-Y Mart and pick up a Holy Avenger."

(Yes, I'm exagerating. I know this.)

Seriously, I'm not saying the other way is wrong--I'm not about telling people they're not "playing right"--but it certainly doesn't appeal to me personally.

So which is it? Do you restrict the amount of magic that can be purchased or gained without real effort? Or do you go entirely by prices and the rules for what's available in a city of a given size?

(Again, I realize it may change campaign by campaign. I'm asking for how you feel with most of your campaigns, not for an iron-clad, no-exceptions rule.)

 

[Teflon Billy]

It's not just purchasing...it's having the money to spend on Item Creation.

 

[FrankTrollman]

There should be another option.

The rules for making magic items are broken. If people have enough gold, they can spend all of their XP on making magic items. Two Hundred and Fifty Thousand GP "worth" of Magic Items is worth far more than the abilities you get from taking the 11th level of any class.


As such, if you give the players 125,000 gp at 10th level the game breaks.

That's a problem with item creation, and it's a problem with expected wealth, and it's a problem with the idea of being able to purchase magic items.

And it is not easily solved.

-Frank

 

[Mouseferatu]

It's not just purchasing...it's having the money to spend on Item Creation.

I've actually found that most players aren't willing to spend the XP to create more than a few items here and there. But maybe that' just my group...

 

[Teflon Billy]

I've actually found that most players aren't willing to spend the XP to create more than a few items here and there. But maybe that' just my group...

Well, it's certainly not my group. I gave them lands with an income and they promptly let everyting fall into disrepair, let the trade routes they had been given become rife with bandits, let the peasantry starve all in an effort to turn their assets into More Magic Items.

After about 6th level your character is pretty much defined by his equipment (particularly non-spellcasters) so it's an understandable power gaming instinct, but it is freaking annoying.

...and it is hardwired into the rules. Tons of money for PC's=Tons of Magic Items for PC's=Broken Balance for entire CR system.

And, like Frank siad, no easy solution in sight.

 

[Gothmog]

Do I allow characters to buy magic items? Short answer- HELL NO!

I think that allowing characters to buy magic items cheapens the experience of actually finding or earning items. Not to mention there is this whole consideration of how the local lord would regulate their sale, and punish those who defy his edicts. And lets be honest, no local lord is going to want some magic-item happy wizard or merchant selling items to anyone who comes along- especially not adventurers (they are simply troublemakers). So even in a high-magic world, I don't think you'd find many magic items for sale. I know I wouldn't allow it if i was a noble- too easy to use against me. Luckily, I tend to prefer low magic worlds, so this has never been an issue.

Also, the PCs in my game have Craft Wondrous Item and Scribe Scroll- but these feats are rarely used. I believe 2 wondrous items under 2000 GP value each have been made, and maybe a dozen scrolls. I don't require XP expenditure for items, but I do require the proper research be done to determine how to make the item, I require VERY specific and rare materials be gathered, and I require a type of magical material called essentia. Basically, it is what powers the magic item, and 1 use of essentia is needed for every 500 XP of the item. Essentia is also rare, and comes in specific types (fire, necromantic, conjuration, divine, spiritual, etc), so its not at all an easy proposition.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

By the rules as written, however, when first level characters can crank out low level potions and scrolls, why is it unreasonable to set up a store selling such things? According to the numbers in the DMG, even a small town of 200 folks will have 5 or 6 people that could be making such items.

Alternately, when your PC's are all toting around +1 items they have acquired during their travels, and start moving up the ladder to +2 items, what do they do with their left-over gear? Do they hoarde it in some dark cave guarded by monsters to be found by other low level adventurers, or do they send the party face-man out into the city to trade the unwanted items for something else?

DS

 

[Mouseferatu]

By the rules as written, however, when first level characters can crank out low level potions and scrolls, why is it unreasonable to set up a store selling such things? According to the numbers in the DMG, even a small town of 200 folks will have 5 or 6 people that could be making such items.

Alternately, when your PC's are all toting around +1 items they have acquired during their travels, and start moving up the ladder to +2 items, what do they do with their left-over gear? Do they hoarde it in some dark cave guarded by monsters to be found by other low level adventurers, or do they send the party face-man out into the city to trade the unwanted items for something else?

DS

Well, speaking only for myself and my players...

I've never seen low-level characters create potions or scrolls they didn't expect to use themselves. And because I run fewer combats than the assumed norm (and give story-based XP), my players rarely have so many magic items that they feel the need to get rid of any of them. There's usually enough need somewhere in the party, or a the very least the desire to have a backup weapon, that they keep most of everything. And if they do get rid of something, they often offer it to an allied NPC or a temple or the like.

I also have far fewer spellcasters in most of my worlds than the assumed default in the core rules, and in some of my campaigns, I've upped the level requirements for item creation feats.

You're right, by the rules as written, it makes sense to be able to buy some pretty powerful magics. But at least in my case, I'd rather change the rules to match what I consider a more attractive feel to the game, then let the rules as written interfere with the feel we're looking for.

 

[Deadguy]

What is it with DMs that they seem to fall apart at the thought of PCs being able to <gasp!> purchase magic items?!?! I know that it's a departure from the earlier position of D&D, where magic wasn't avaialble except as a 'gift' from the DM. And I appreciate that if you're still running a campaign that started back in pre-3e days, then retrofitting the campaign may be right out. But really, if you are starting afresh under 3e, then rather than just running scared from magic item purchase incorporate it into the setting! Think about who purchases magic items, and how. Think about how this affects the abilities of powerful people, of governments and organisations.

I agree that it's quite some work, and it's also a bit hit-and-miss as to adjudging it right. But I assure you that it can be done and still leave a world worth adventuring in. You just have to take a different tack with adventure design. Whilst you can still do adventures about 'get the holy sword', they must be at the appropriate level, and they must make internal sense (mostly 'why the PCs, and not someone else more powerful better equipped to deal with this threat?'). You also don't tend to do adventures whose sole selling point is 'find the magic goodies'; PCs do find that adventure less interesting under 3e. But there are still plenty of things to motivate PCs beyond just tantalising them with a magical doodad!

As for cheapening magic, I think you have to run a very low magic game indeed to avoid that. Standard D&D under 1e and 2e still had loads of magic items, and PCs still tended to accumulate plenty of 'toys' (just take a look through White Plume Mountain again, or tot up the magic in G1-3). It's just that under previous editions, PCs couldn't effectively create any magic items (and no-one in their right mind would even try according to the suggestions as to what was involved). So PCs were entirely beholden to the DM. That isn't mystical any more than purchase is; it just sidesteps player involvement and doesn't bother to explain where magic comes from.

The one thing I will say about 3e's approach to magic that I don't like. I don't think that they should have phrased availability as being just a matter of 'is the town big enough?'. For myself, I assume that magic items, as very expensive goods, are snapped up very fast. So PCs generally have to commission magic items that they want. That means finding someone able to make the item, and allowing them time to create it. That is, PCs must plan ahead. I find that the combination of planning and finding items creates a good motivation for action by PCs. And in the process you can dangle plenty of interesting adventure hooks in front of them. But I can sympathise why the 2e designers took a simpler line - all of the above takes rather more work to sort out. Still quite doable though.

 

[Mouseferatu]

But really, if you are starting afresh under 3e, then rather than just running scared from magic item purchase incorporate it into the setting!

I have. And I won't claim that you can't have a lot of fun in that sort of campaign. I'm sure I'll run one again.

That said, I still far prefer the feel of doign it the other way--the "old" way, if you will. It's a taste issue, not an ability issue. To me, it just feels more like what I think a fantasy story/setting/adventure should feel like if you have to find what you need. And yes, I'm speaking not only as a DM who's done both, but as a player who's done both. You should never assume that folks who don't want to run it as written can't do so.