Magic for sale?

[Bloodstone Press]

In 1e and 2e, I ran very low magic campaigns. No magic shops at all, wizards persecuted at every turn, etc. Most 7th level characters were lucky to have a +1 weapon or more than 2 miscellaneous items. And I was considered the most "generous" DM in our group!

With the advent of 3e, a character's wealth (and magic items) became directly related to the game balance. Magic items are no long rare objects solely under the DM’s discretion to hand out, but are now necessities that characters have a “right” to own.

Now, I'll let players start the game with the assumption that they made, bought, stole, or were given their magic items. After the game starts, I usually try to give them at least one opportunity per 2 levels to visit a powerful church, organization of wizards, trader's guild, or whatever, where they can trade their items, gold, and services for new items. There is still no “magic shops.”

The amount of character wealth is, in my opinion, too high, but reducing it causes problems in other areas of the system. Without enough money, the characters can’t obtain the equipment they need to accomplish the “suitable” challenges that are set before them.

If we start a game at 7th level, the PCs come to the table with a LOT of magic items (IMO). After they gain about 2 levels, players often start telling me “I don’t have as much money/equipment as a 9th level character should.” My ears are deaf to that cry, but I can’t deny that they are clearly weaker than a “fresh” 9th level character, which is what CR 9 encounters are designed for.

Basically, I feel the whole power level of the game gets out of hand. I’m currently working on my home-brew to compensate for this. I’ve used a hybrid of the Modern and Fantasy rules to create a more realistic semi-magical setting but I still have a lot of work to do on it

As for creating magic items, I frequently play characters who create lots of items. The XP cost is probably too low. I am always surprised at how low it is. Of course, this is because my group usually has 2-3 near-overwhelming encounters per game (CR +3 or more). We get piles of XP after every session. If we played with more balanced encounters, XP wouldn’t be so abundant, advancement would be slower, and I’d be more reluctant to make items.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Without enough money, the characters can’t obtain the equipment they need to accomplish the “suitable” challenges that are set before them.

You know, I've just never experienced this myself. Again, it may be because I prefer fewer encounters (but tougher ones) in my campaigns. The average game in my campaigns has only one major fight--maybe two, and a few minor ones, if it's a combat-heavy night, sometimes no combat at all if it's an investigation/interaction-heavy night. OTOH, one of my "major" fights usually wears out a lot more than 25% of the party's resources.

My point, though, is that even having fewer combats (and thus less treasure) than suggested, and not making magic items available for purchase, I have never had the party suffer unduly, or prove unable to face the challenges before them, due to a dearth of magic items. I acknowledge that my campaigns may be in the minority, as far as this sort of thing working out, but they do prove that it can be done.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

You know, I've just never experienced this myself.

I'm not sure I have either. I point it out because it is implied in the rules, it is demonstrable when looking at a "fresh" character’s performance against one who has been “in game” for several levels, and because it is a common refrain of players who want powerful characters.

In my experience, I would have to agree that having fewer magic items has not clearly resulted in character death, or a complete inability to overcome an obstacle. However, I can’t say that it doesn’t have some significant effect. Surely, a case could be made that at least a few of the character deaths that have occurred in my campaigns were influenced by the low magic.

This is one of the questions I am wrestling with in my home-brew. Just how significantly will these changes I’m making affect the character’s ability to overcome?

 

[Barastrondo]

This poll could use a "Buy? No. Trade? Yes." option. I don't make magic items available for purchase, but certain institutions (particularly temples) do keep various magic goods in the vaults and are not averse to exchanging them for items that interest them more. For instance, if you find a magical trident that nobody in the party really cares about using, you can probably bet that a temple of the sea god would be quite interested in acquiring it. This is a little more subject to DM control, of course, but what the players lose in shopping convenience is offset by the potential contacts and goodwill they can make among aforementioned institutions. And it's fun to roleplay.

My point, though, is that even having fewer combats (and thus less treasure) than suggested, and not making magic items available for purchase, I have never had the party suffer unduly, or prove unable to face the challenges before them, due to a dearth of magic items. I acknowledge that my campaigns may be in the minority, as far as this sort of thing working out, but they do prove that it can be done.

Same here. Although I also assume this is a by-product of giving the PCs better attributes overall (when I use point buy, "generous" is a word that could apply, although it's a bit mild). The way I figure it, if the game assumes you have middling stats that are made up for with various magic items, it doesn't throw things too off-balance if you give them good stats and fewer magic items. So far, no real problems, and I like the focus on a character's innate abilities over his gear.

 

[Deadguy]

I have. And I won't claim that you can't have a lot of fun in that sort of campaign. I'm sure I'll run one again.

That said, I still far prefer the feel of doign it the other way--the "old" way, if you will. It's a taste issue, not an ability issue. To me, it just feels more like what I think a fantasy story/setting/adventure should feel like if you have to find what you need. And yes, I'm speaking not only as a DM who's done both, but as a player who's done both. You should never assume that folks who don't want to run it as written can't do so.

I apologise if I sounded like I was accusing you of being deficient as a DM, Mouseferatu! I know from your many previous posts that you are a very capable DM! I guess I am reacting to many other posts, not from you, where DMs don't seem to want to give the system a try. They don't say, as you have, that they deliberately want a different feel, but rather that '3e's way of handling magic items is wrong!' I've seen people who seem to feel that somehow the older way was the only right way.

And it's not like I think that the 'old' way is particularly logical, consistent or coherent. Magic items are produced from the ether with scarcely an explanation other than story-driven necessity. Someone must make these items, and yet PCs can never aspire to do so (or rather they can, but like I say the methodologies are so over the top and absurd that very very few beings would ever entertain the notion). I always found the old way unsatisfactory, which is why I do like 3e's approach. Now there many be problems with the specific balance (mostly born out of the legacy caster mechanics and spells I think), but the basic idea is a fair and coherent one. It may not work well to tell Lord of the Rings but then I don't care; I game to tell my stories, not someone else's!

I wonder if my opinion is coloured by having played Ars Magica for a great many years? That game system, for those who don't know it, has a nice mechanism for creating magical items. Indeed it's an integral part of the power of a Magus to be able to craft and call upon magic items. And since Jonathon Tweet was involved with Ars Magica we can perhaps see the inspiration. Ahhh... I hadn't made the connection before - I think that's why I like 3e's approach to magic!

 

[Silveras]

I make potions and scrolls available for purchase in the most advanced lands in my homebrew world. Less-advanced lands do not have even those available for immediate sale. Other magic items I do not want to see available so easily.

What I have noticed is that the focus on "Return to the Dungeon" has subtle and far-reaching effects. First, a campaign is expected to last about 260 encounters (20 levels with an average of 13 encounters per); second, all spells are balanced (esp. in 3.5) around their effectivenes in the "dungeon" environment (ie., away from a city, in a place where the PCs may be attacked at night, with combat the most likely result of any meeting); third, the CRs of creatures are determined with the expected equipment of a "suitable" party in mind; and third, that the availability of magic in a city/town is supposed to match the needs of adventurers returning from said dungeon (based on the CRs of the creatures, and the equipment level expected to deal with them).

 

[the Jester]

I voted 'Most of the time' but it's really some of the time, but not quite rarely (there's a big gap there in your poll options...)

I figure that there's a market for magic items, but mostly in big cities and stuff. Smaller towns prolly have a few cheaper items available, especially potions and scrolls. Even large cities won't have a lot of major items, but there might be an opportunity to commission them.

 

[FrankTrollman]

The problem is not that the XP cost isn't enough - it's not always even a cost. Certainly it's not a consistent cost.

When a character accumulates XP until he's 11th level, he's an 11th level character. And that means he's getting XP at the reduced rate of an 11th level character. If you spend it on making 250,000 gp worth of magic items - you are still a 10th level character. That means that you still collect XP at the rate of a 10th level character - and recieve 15/11 as many XP for being in the same adventures.

The cost of those Magic Items goes down if that cost actually matters in terms of you not getting levels. And of course if it doesn't end up costing you a level it isn't a cost at all.

So yes. As things stand people who have figured out how to work the magic item creation system can really work it. It's tremendously overpowered on every level. The XP cost isn't even real. And since the XP cost isn't real, it forces you to make the monetary cost real. Otherwise it doesn't have a cost at all.

-Frank

 

[hong]

What is it with DMs that they seem to fall apart at the thought of PCs being able to <gasp!> purchase magic items?!?!

Clearly, DMs who refuse to let PCs buy items are often poor DMs who have bought the cliche standard fantasy tropes hook, line, and sinker, and don't want to or are uncomfortable going outside the confines of what they know. They also tend to be plot-nazis, and have VERY one-dimensional worlds with extremely linear adventures that the PCs are herded through. BORING!!!


Hong "here endeth the flashback" Ooi

 

[the Jester]

hong, is that cat in a dryer??

If I recall from last time, the kitty's actually about 25' long....

...where'd you find a dryer that big??