Does the Death Curve Beat the Death Spiral?

[Umbran]

Your remarks bring to mind the difficult task of getting something to orbit a planet. Too steep of an approach and you burn up or slam into the planet. Too shallow of an approach and you bounce off the atmosphere and head off who know where. The successful angle exists but is very difficult to achieve.

Pretty much.

Nitpick: If you bounce off the atmosphere, not only was your approach too shallow, but you were also way too close.

 

[GMMichael]

What I want to see are combat systems that make it easy for the whole party to retreat and that provide a clear signal when it's time to do so.

This is fair. One thing that should be included in the Hit Points Are Genius thread (might be, I don't know) is that they're not externally visible. So if you're about to start a fight against the 1,000 HP kobold, a clear signal to run away might be nice.

The usual PC ethos includes "no one gets left behind," which is a fine thing except for the way the usual combat rules combine with it to produce a "Victory or death! Every combat is a Last Stand." setup.

I'll sometimes abandon that ethos when I tell an ally, "we should run," and the ally says, "haha! Art thou craven?" and runs in anyway. Who am I to interfere with someone's death wish?

Even with scummy NPCs and monsters willing to leave their dead and wounded behind, GMs often need a reminder to have survivors retreat. To expect PCs to leave their dead and wounded behind produces a game that's more grimdark than I care to either run or play in. With the usual combat systems out there, this turns nearly all combat encounters into Last Stands, either for the NPCs/monsters or for the player characters.

The theoretical (thanks, @Umbran) steep part of the death curve is the point to run. Before that, you still have a chance of winning. After that, there's no chance of winning, but at least you're still alive.

 

[Edgar Ironpelt]

This is fair. One thing that should be included in the Hit Points Are Genius thread (might be, I don't know) is that they're not externally visible. So if you're about to start a fight against the 1,000 HP kobold, a clear signal to run away might be nice.


I'll sometimes abandon that ethos when I tell an ally, "we should run," and the ally says, "haha! Art thou craven?" and runs in anyway. Who am I to interfere with someone's death wish?

It sounds like we're talking about two different things. You seem to be talking about the PCs choosing to avoid a combat to begin with, while I'm talking about the PCs choosing to withdraw & retreat from a combat after becoming engaged in it. The first is something the PCs can generally pull off if they choose to do so, unless events or the GM actively conspire against their doing so. The second is usually difficult to the point of making every combat a Last Stand.

 

[GMMichael]

It sounds like we're talking about two different things. You seem to be talking about the PCs choosing to avoid a combat to begin with, while I'm talking about the PCs choosing to withdraw & retreat from a combat after becoming engaged in it. The first is something the PCs can generally pull off if they choose to do so, unless events or the GM actively conspire against their doing so. The second is usually difficult to the point of making every combat a Last Stand.

The point holds if you're already fighting the 1,000 HP (now 982 HP) kobold. Since you can't see hit points, you don't have a clear signal that running away is a good idea.

On the flip side, PCs can see their own hit points just fine. And how much damage they're taking. They don't need a more clear signal to run away. They just need some sense in their heads.

In addition, as long as the GM is in complete control of enemies, there's no system needed to let PCs run away, whole hog/party - just sense in the GM's head.

 

[Basic Expert]

Surely a kobold with 1,000 HP would tell you it has 1,000 HP. I would. Probably can't get him to shut up about it.

 

[Halifax Brent]

DragonQuest's system could be seen as a death curve, I suppose. It used Fatigue points, which you used for things like avoiding damage until they were all gone. After that, you'd take damage directly to health. Fatigue recovered quickly, health took a long time. So running out of fatigue was a clear demarcation point in the fight, where you were still fully functional, but things were about to get serious if you didn't retreat.

On the other hand, DragonQuest also had a critical hits system that was totally a death spiral. Having your leg broken or your eye gouged out didn't kill you, but left you all-but-dead if the rest of the party didn't bail you out.

 

[aramis erak]

I'll sometimes abandon that ethos when I tell an ally, "we should run," and the ally says, "haha! Art thou craven?" and runs in anyway. Who am I to interfere with someone's death wish?

When letting them pursue it makes your suvival dubious.
It's as true IRL as in-game.

There's a fine line between letting someone run with a bad idea and endorsing said bad idea, but its a fairly important line

 

[dragoner]

HP works because it is simple, and easy to track. I have tried a lot of different systems for wounding, and it always is a struggle to for people to understand. Most recently:

Part of it is that there are follow on effects, such as how much damage a weapon is doing. Ultimately it just felt like reinventing the wheel.

 

[FrogReaver]

Death spiral is generally less output the more damaged you are. I don’t think following the right half of the bell curve to be useful as you’ll drop down in output significantly enough for it to really spiral you despite it not really going lower at some point. Anything more than 2/3 of your base output is probably pushing things and even that’s probably too much no matter how long you stay there.

 

[A_Carrington]

You don't have to die when you reach zero health. You can just be defeated.

There can be mechanics for re-joining the fight when you get defeated.

Reducing health doesn't have to be the only way of defeating people.

Players can be subject to hindering effects without it inevitably leading to defeat if the game isn't designed like a house of glass cards. A penalty shouldn't be the difference between being effective and being irrelevant.

Players can have options to interact with and defend themselves against hindering effects.