Magic is not the red-headed stepchild.

[Sunseeker]

So the blind are immune to phantasmal killer as they know the image is fake since they can't see jack thus anything they see is fake?

"I'm blind so that can't be Crowno the Clown King. Pffft, whatever."

If the image relies on their sight, then I'd say yes. If the image is something projected into his brain, that's different. Blind people can "see" things created by their mind, even if they can't see with their eyes.

 

[Minigiant]

If the image relies on their sight, then I'd say yes. If the image is something projected into his brain, that's different. Blind people can "see" things created by their mind, even if they can't see with their eyes.

But you are blind so you know anything you see was made up by you and some wizard. At least, get a +4 to the save.

 

[Sunseeker]

But you are blind so you know anything you see was made up by you and some wizard. At least, get a +4 to the save.

I'd probably make them make a knowledge or insight check to think rationally upon seeing the image instead of just freaking the heck out.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I'm confused by this thread's point. Do you mean to say that you want a magic system where fireball only works if the target can hear it being cast? If so, cool, but magic in D&D has never worked like that.

Are you saying you want Explosive Runes to not work on blind people; Ghost Sound to not work on deaf people; etc? If so, hasn't it always worked like that?

 

[satori01]

I disagree with the premise. I do not want magic to be logical, I want it to be magical.

Otherwise you wind up with 3e, were Illusion magic, while logical was just weaker because it did no damage and many entire categories of creatures were immune to it.


If Hezog the Black made a pact with the Lord of the Nine Hells, to gain the forked tongue of a devil, then why shouldn't his Suggestion work on a dog, or a human guardsman, or a corpse? The mythic stories of Earth are full or strange, impossible, even downright non sensical, and illogical things....it is called Magic.


Magic should for the most part work, (with exceptions of course). If Magic does not work it becomes garbage, like Phrenology.

 

[steeldragons]

If the image relies on their sight, then I'd say yes. If the image is something projected into his brain, that's different. Blind people can "see" things created by their mind, even if they can't see with their eyes.

But you are blind so you know anything you see was made up by you and some wizard. At least, get a +4 to the save.

My understanding of Phantasmal Killer is that it is a psychic attack, essentially. The target "sees" what they most fear, so in that respect it is an illusion, a "phantasm"...but noone else around sees what the target is seeing.

So, I'd say blind or not, Phantasmal Killer works on your mind.

I'd probably make them make a knowledge or insight check to think rationally upon seeing the image instead of just freaking the heck out.

Isn't this what the Saving Throw is for? If you make it, no harm, no foul...rational thought wins out. If you miss it, then, yeah, you're falling for it.

But, as to the essence of the post...yes, magic should work with a degree of common sense when it comes to things like "effecting senses the target doesn't have."

But, as [MENTION=7859]satori01[/MENTION] says, it's magic. I agree with his post as well. It's not always going to be "logical"...but it should "make sense"...have a baseline of assumptions that the characters are able to quantify and understand. At least, insofar as the PCs can utilize/control it.

However, that is not the end all be all of magic and there should certainly be things outside/beyond the PCs knowledge and understanding of how magic is "supposed" to work.

--SD

 

[Minigiant]

But [MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION], Phantasmal Killer's will save is for disbelief. When you make the save, it is because you know the horrible sight is fake and can't hurt you.

Then if you are stricken blind, anything you see is fake and a figment of your imagination. So when the mage projects a phantasmal killer into your mind, you know it is an psychic attack and the killer can't hurt you. Then the phantasmal killer disappears no harm no foul.

 

[Arytiss]

See no evil, hear no evil, be unaffected by Blasphemy.

I can see where the idea is coming from, but I don't agree with it - to a certain degree. Yes, a blind monk will be unaffected by an illusion that requires sight, and a deaf guard won't be distracted by a Ghost sound, but these are things which should be determined by the GM, not by the rules. As such, include information on it in the DMG, but don/t cover pages and pages with unnecessary extra rulings that will just act as another level of unnecessary complexity.

 

[Sunseeker]

I disagree with the premise. I do not want magic to be logical, I want it to be magical.

Otherwise you wind up with 3e, were Illusion magic, while logical was just weaker because it did no damage and many entire categories of creatures were immune to it.


If Hezog the Black made a pact with the Lord of the Nine Hells, to gain the forked tongue of a devil, then why shouldn't his Suggestion work on a dog, or a human guardsman, or a corpse? The mythic stories of Earth are full or strange, impossible, even downright non sensical, and illogical things....it is called Magic.


Magic should for the most part work, (with exceptions of course). If Magic does not work it becomes garbage, like Phrenology.

Your example is not as irrational as frame it.
1: dogs can understand languages to a primitive degree, and certainly comprehend tone and volume. A magical suggestion would certainly work on a dog, they are by all means intelligent enough to understand them.
2: as above, humans can comprehend tone and volume even if they don't speak the language the magic was spoken in.
3: being that this devils tongue came from a demon/devil who likely has influence over dead things, and we agree it affects humans, it would likely affect corpses of the living things it also affects. However, the corpse may have only a very, very basic grasp of the intention of the suggestion. And then there's the question, are we suggesting to the physical corpse, or the spirit of the living thing that once was the corpse. There's a big difference.

 

[Andor]

As a guideline? Sure. As an absolute rule? Nope.

If the sound based spell is a bards words of encouragement then yes, being deaf stops them from working.

If the sound based spell is a shockwave then being deaf does not stop it from bouncing you off a cliff.

If the Bard had journeyed to the 3rd celestial sphere and sung the words of creation with the choir of eternity then if doesn't matter of your are deaf, or a stone. His words are heard in the heart and soul and your crippled ears don't matter at all.

Blamket rules for magic are silly and annoying unless they are deliberately and actively there to shape the cosmology of the world. Otherwise you have intelligent undead immue to illusions and morale effects in spite of the fact that they have senses and morale. And that's just stupid.