Magic Item Daily Power Usage Limits

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

M
I've got to ask why are there these limits? Is it a balance issue? If so where does it break down? It doesn't seem overpowering to me unless you are draping your PC in magical gear. My bad guys all have the ability to use their best powers over and over thanks to recharge, as long as you roll the right numbers. We've not played with the limits before now (b/c we overlooked the rule) and the ability to use more than 1 daily power on their items has saved their bacon a few times over now, where otherwise it would've resulted in a TPK or two.

Which obviously indicates it is a balance issue - the PCs are more powerful then they normally would be, and thus can survive situations where they normally would have failed. You have experienced your "breakdown" right there.

The Daily Item limit is a balance issue. The game was designed around the assumption of PCs only having a limited amount of daily items. The powers of items work under these assumption, the powers of monsters work under these assumption.

The most obvious effect that you already experienced is that characters can take more then usual.

The second effect is that magical items get more desirable to have, buy, enchant or find. Some items (particularly lower level items) more so then others.

The end result (worst case scenario perhaps, but the one the game will naturally gravitate towards) is most likely that you (assuming you'd be the DM) will send harder encounters against your PCs to compensate, and they will try to "re"-compensate by acquiring more items and better combinations of items. This will probably lead to characters being more defined by their items then their own abilities.

Note that the Item Daily limit is not _that_ hard. Every milestone, you gain one extra use. So the scenario you described where you "broke" the daily item use limit might have still worked out - it just couldn't have been the first combat the PCs have gone through (meaning the earlier were easy enough to not require magic item dailies)

 

[CapnZapp]

This isn't a house rules forum.

You know what? Youre absolutely right.

Perhaps the thread can be moved?



MR: thank you for your reply!

Personally, Im not sure you need something as elaborate. Just disallow the party from using one particular power (or kind of power) more than once a day, and you should be fine.

I should probably add I dont have a real problem with the rule as-is. But I can definitely understand how it comes across as fiddly, complex, relatively heavy on admin, and "getting in the way of immersion"... so I can sympathise with those who would jump at a chance of getting rid of it, had there only been a lighter alternative without serious balance compromises.

 

[timbannock]

There may be balance issues (I haven't seen any in my game, but I'm stingy, and we're low level), but remember who controls the items: THE DM. If you pay attention to what you make available, then it's pretty easy to see what's going on.

Now, that said, some DMs don't have time to re-work the treasure of premade adventures. From my (limited) experience, you have little to worry about...most adventures aren't going to dump a lot of the same kind of item unless there's a REALLY good story reason to do so...and I've never seen that.

So, the only thing you really have to do is tell the players flat out that you'll waive the limits, so long as they don't pull any shenanigans, LEGAL OR NO. Player entitlement is a bad thing when it comes to this stuff. It really shouldn't extend beyond race & class choices, IMHO: allow them to play the character they want. But that should NEVER mean that you as the DM HAVE TO GIVE THEM THE ITEMS they want or think they need.

Part of why treasure is so "bland" to some people is because the DM doesn't think about it as treasure, but as loot, or as "just some more equipment." You have to consider it as treasure, something to be treasured, something that's rare and unique. If you do that with most items (probably ignoring healing potions and that kind of stuff), your players will keep the wonder and excitement. If the Paladin is never guaranteed the Holy Avenger +5, then he might just make due with what he DOES find, and maybe even find himself using stuff he wouldn't otherwise in new and interesting ways in order to maximize what he's got.

When it comes to item creation and disenchantment, just be aware of what they are doing. Legal or no, 5 suits of +1 armor with daily powers is...well, useless to a single person, right? It's great for 5 people though, because then 5 people can wear the 5 suits of armor. But then, no other armor is useful right? Well, maybe they put their armors in a bag of holding so they can suit up in new armor every battle. Call shenanigans on stuff like that. Or, say "Sorry, a bag of holding's opening cannot accept a breastplate, for it is too wide to shove into the bag without tearing."

Again, shenanigans are shenanigans. Say "yes" to anything that's cool and fun for the group at large. Say "no" to stupidity.

 

[Manhattanguy]

Another reason for the daily item limit is to discourage the "five minute workday." The designers were trying to keep people from walking into their first combat of the day, using all their dailies, winning the fight, then setting up camp and waiting until the next morning for fight number 2. By allowing an additional use of a daily power every milestone (as well as by imposing certain other rules like the limitations on extended rests and so forth), the designers were hoping to encourage people to fight several times a day in order to reach those milestones. Whether that is actually sufficient motivation to get people to continue fighting is another topic.

neuronphaser:

If the Paladin is never guaranteed the Holy Avenger +5, then he might just make due with what he DOES find, and maybe even find himself using stuff he wouldn't otherwise in new and interesting ways in order to maximize what he's got.

I agree to a large extent: I enjoy putting things in treasure hordes that my players haven't been asking for and don't know anything about. None of my players have, or plan to buy, the Adventurer's Vault; our game is on hold for now, but I'm looking forward to putting various AV items into the treasure hordes for them to discover and experiment with. I agree that getting them to try something new and out of their comfort zone is generally fun for the DM and interesting for the character.

Having said that, I still throw the players a bone every now and then. If one of my characters is an archer, for example, then I'll make sure to drop a cool new bow or nifty set of arrows into a treasure horde every few levels.

 

[timbannock]

Having said that, I still throw the players a bone every now and then. If one of my characters is an archer, for example, then I'll make sure to drop a cool new bow or nifty set of arrows into a treasure horde every few levels.

By no means should my post reflect that I don't throw them things they want (not that you're saying that it is). I just mention this because I do give my players want they want often, but I like to throw in some stuff they didn't think about. Also, when a player is chomping at the bit for that Holy Avenger +5 but is only 3rd level, I'll throw him something else useful.

Another tactic, while I'm at it, is giving them what they want but not in the form they expect. For instance, I have a bard/cleric character in my current 3.5 campaign. She generally held back and fought with a bow, but her only real role in combat was Bard singing and healing the other PCs. It worked, but she was not having a lot of fun just hanging back, singing and healing and occasionally rolling an attack (that usually missed).

So, I gave her a holy symbol that allowed her to spend a turn attempt and heal 1d6 HP per cleric level to all allies within 60'. It's a swift action to use.

Unbalanced? Maybe a little, but now she can heal as a swift action, sing as her first standard action, and then keep attacking from that point out (healing as a swift action when needed). She still misses a lot with the bow, but at least she rolls an attack roll almost every round, rather than just casting Cure spells all the time. Perhaps her character was a suboptimal build, but it's what she liked, and I helped her out. We've all had more fun because of it. Therefore, I don't regret it one bit.

 

[Lakoda]

Our group does not play with the magic item daily limit, and that works for us. It really bugged be because the limit on daily magic item powers made my players pick up only those magic items without powers (just properties) or with at-will and encounter powers. This basically short circuited the whole point of the limit on daily powers anyways - to limit the need for magic items (which I don't think it does) and to give incentives for hitting milestones. So I just removed it entirely. Balance wise is has not had a big effect (only to level 9 currently) but it might later. The whole milestone/5-minute-day thing (IMHO) is something the DM can address so I do not need a mechanic to do it for me.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Our group does not play with the magic item daily limit, and that works for us. It really bugged be because the limit on daily magic item powers made my players pick up only those magic items without powers (just properties) or with at-will and encounter powers. This basically short circuited the whole point of the limit on daily powers anyways - to limit the need for magic items (which I don't think it does) and to give incentives for hitting milestones. So I just removed it entirely. Balance wise is has not had a big effect (only to level 9 currently) but it might later. The whole milestone/5-minute-day thing (IMHO) is something the DM can address so I do not need a mechanic to do it for me.

The 5 minute work day can be addressed by the DM sometimes, but not others. Sometimes you want a rules solution for when the DM can't. When I run a plot-line that requires the players to control the pace of the adventure on their own, I want there to be a real reason not to turn around after one combat every day.

The point of it wasn't to remove the NEED for magic items, but to reduce the DEPENDENCE on them. They are entirely different things. You can need items without being dependent on them. You are dependent on your class powers, but you just need your magic items.

I certainly know that if I allowed my players to use unlimited daily powers, they would go hunting for the best daily powers they could find, especially on unslotted items and use as many of them as they could during the first battle every day.

The entire point of separating powers into At-Will, Encounter, and Daily for 4e was that the pace of the game would be decided by your powers. In the average round you use a At-Will power, once per combat when it is really needed you pull out the big guns(your Encounter) and once per day when you are likely to die, you pull out your Daily. Magic items short circuit that pacing by letting you use a Daily(or Encounter) power ability more often. Which is fine, as long as they become the very rare thing you use. Without the limitation, the game quickly turns into:

"I hit with my Daily power, I activate my Gauntlets of Ogre Power to do extra damage. I activate my Lightning Weapon, hitting everyone around me. Then I use my Veteran's Armor to get back my Daily. Then I activate my Cloak of Resistance to gain resist 5 to all until the start of my next turn. On my next turn, I hit with my Daily again."

The game becomes more about your items than it does your actual powers and class.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, for those suggesting "don't grant <certain types of problematic> treasure"
They'll have to modify the Enchant Magic Item ritual as well.

My epic wizard carries enough residuum to make any paragon tier (and below) item in 1 hour ... or hundreds of heroic tier items given a bit of time.

 

[CapnZapp]

One very simple rule would be "you can only ever use one Daily per Encounter", and remove all other rules/restrictions.

Sure, players would sort their Dailes according to how cool/powerful they are, but that seems unavoidable under any circumstances.

 

[timbannock]

Well, for those suggesting "don't grant <certain types of problematic> treasure"
They'll have to modify the Enchant Magic Item ritual as well.

My epic wizard carries enough residuum to make any paragon tier (and below) item in 1 hour ... or hundreds of heroic tier items given a bit of time.

Agreed. It might be worthwhile to take a look at the Metamagic Components rules from Unearthed Arcana (also found on The Hypertext d20 SRD (v3.5 d20 System Reference Document) :: d20srd.org) to brainstorm specific items that might be needed in addition to Residuum to craft such items. Limit these extra items, and bam...the Residuum problem isn't as big a deal.

If someone wants to play the Item Crafty guy, throw some bones and definitely discuss this kind of thing ahead of time. But even then, I can't really see the intention of crafting magic items as being the Magical Item Assembly Line, so that still seems a little "shenanigan-ish" to me.