Magic Item Hate

[Commonblade]

I voted for Boring, Common, Glut, Trade, and Need.

<rant>

It wasn't until recently that I really started to feel the boringness of +X items. Now that I do I have began to cringe at the idea of placing them anywhere in my game. Magic Items should be unique. If a magic item doesn’t have a story, its just another tool.

To hammer in that point, why does everything carry a magic item. (because you gave it to them DM! Duh) But it has to challenge the PC's. (No not really, you really shouldn't confront your PC with basic guards, or even elite guards with magic treasure, a proper villain would only out fit the best with such things). Shut up inside voice.

Can anyone give me a good example of non-DND fantasy where all the characters had a magic sword, magic bow, magic armor, magic shield , magic ring , magic cloak, magic x, magic y, magic blah? If it exist I just can't think of it. Most of what I have read or watched has had a character with a single item that usually had multiple abilities/effects.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with a PC making their own stuff, I just have problems with the selling of magic items. (You sell magic items in every town of your game). Yes and its a problem. I hate, and yes this is new, hate magic item shops. It completely killed the wonder of the magic item and knocked down to just another tool. If NPCs hold on to magic items they can't use (stupid random table) as money why can't the PCs. (Wait, if you have no stores that sell magic items, what would they spend it on?) I don't know, maybe there should be something more mundane to buy...like an island. They guy who is king is just probably the guy whose ancestor bought the whole dang country with a scroll of cure light wounds (now that’s just silly). Is it?

The problem is the Need. Crap, you want to make the game hard core, simply not give out any magic items, prevent the 8 minute work day (Monsters can attack the party) and watch the group TPK like a group of Orcs trying to singing x-mas carols. How can the players not feel like they are entitled to some loot when they get themselves thrashed so soundly?

I know a lot of my problems are self inflicted. I plan on correcting them "next time." Thanks for letting me rant.

</rant>

 

[Sir Sebastian Hardin]

Getting cool stuff is a large part of playing a "Cool" game.

Plus I see all the voting options being a problem of the DM not knowing what to do with their game. Just shows that despite claims to the contrary too many people treat the rules in the books as irrefutable.

If its boring, too common, etc... the DM needs to make the changes, not WOTC. Entitlement is a little bit harder for the DM to deal with, but up to a point is a legitimate expectation on the part of the players. They are playing a game with dragons, demons, and powerful wizards and priests after all. Having all that and little to no magic is counter intuitive.

So my "vote" is that the DM does what it takes to make it work and still be fun and not blame it on a rule book. The books have to make it all available. The book gives you rules which may help a DM control these issues in a manner they like. There are tons of ideas and advice given on how to deal with these issues in case you can't figure them out for yourselves.

Not to mention plenty of people on these boards who can offer their insights, and I have read plenty of threads where they were given.

Saying 4E needs to somehow fix these issues is wrong. These options need to stay in the game.

Believe it or not some people ike running and playing in games where the PC's are christmas trees. OThers like to play with the Grinch. Most are somewhere in between.

All 4E is going to do is give you suggestions and guidelines on how to offset these issues if you perceive them as problems. Just like in 3E. The only thing that is going to change is the parameters of the game, but the advice is still going to be the same. Just like it is for every edition, and for every game system.

That's not true:
-If the game is supposed to be played with Christmas Tree-PCs, then if you "fix it" and give less magic items, then they won't be powerful enough to deal with the monsters meant for their current level. Then you would gave to nerf the monsters or throw them easier monsters ore re-think experience. The game MUST NOT be wrong enough to make all DMs house rule a lot: You know what is the consequence of this? 3.5!! We don't want a 4.5 edition, so it is up to WotC to fix every possible flaw, and not leave it to the DMs.

One more thing: a +1 sword, +1 ring, +1 shield are NOT cool stuff. A flamming sword, a ring of the Ram, a dancing shield... this thinggs are better (because they let you do other things)

 

[heirodule]

Other:

Price out of the "fun" range for many items. MIC fixed this alot.

Also the save DC for the effects of many expensive high level Wondrous items is too low to be interesting.

 

[Kraydak]

One more thing: a +1 sword, +1 ring, +1 shield are NOT cool stuff. A flamming sword, a ring of the Ram, a dancing shield... this thinggs are better (because they let you do other things)

It is a very sad reality to face, but magic items are never, and never will be cool. It doesn't matter how much effort the DM puts into item and item backstory design, but, much like toys the day after Christmas, the coolness never lasts beyond a session (2, at most). After that they become part of the toolbox.

If you try and force coolness, you will be disappointed as your players desperately try to ditch "cool" (read gimped) items for useful things. You can describe an item *once*. Which means you get the coolness value of the item *once*. You get the ingame utility of the item every single time you use it. Guess what people focus on...

 

[Doug McCrae]

DnD is a game that can be "fixed" whenever you need it to be. Magic items running rampant, get rid of them. Monsters with DR/X Special Metal, just give them different DR, or change their DR on the fly. Why can and should the DM do this, because its his job to make sure the game that he is running is enjoyable for everyone.

That takes a lot of effort though. Which DRs do you change, and by how much? Keep DR/cold iron? Surely werewolves must still have DR/silver for flavour reasons? How about adamantite? What about demons and devils? Lots of decisions to be made.

And that's not all. Melee characters need those boosts to their combat stats - AC, especially, also to hit, damage and hit points. Save DCs assume PCs have cloaks of resistance and stat boosters. Mess with that and the whole CR system is thrown out of whack. Casters benefit disproportionately from low magic because they still have it and the fighter doesn't. Spells like Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon become even more powerful than they were. Bull's Strength and the like remain powerful even at higher levels. Clerics and druids will dominate even more than they did before.

Yes this can all be fixed but you're practically having to write a new game to do so. You'd be better off running Iron Heroes or Conan d20 where the work has already been done.

 

[Ulrick]

I voted every single catagory. The magic item system in 3.0/3.5e annoys me for all of those reasons. The fact is, that if you alter one of those catagories, it affects how you run and design adventures for D&D. At higher levels, not having all those magic items (the glut catagory) can effect CR. So therefore, PCs expect to have those magic items. It's just a circle of annoyance. I have players both present and past try to find the "magic shop" in town, and I have to keep explaining to them, "why hell would somebody with a magic item want to sell it---unless it was cursed?"

I can see somebody selling a minor magic item like a potion or a scroll, but not a permanent item--even a +1 weapon, unless they were desperate and needed the money or the item has some drawback. I can see high-level NPCs rewarding players with a coveted magic item for some quest accomplished--as long as the PCs share the same beliefs and ideals.

But as for "magic shops." No. 3.5 already has a video-gamey feel without adding magic shops.

 

[Benimoto]

I kind of like magic items, and I only voted Glut, and even then I did so kind of halfheartedly.

I'm pretty much fine with the current level of magic items. Sure it would be nice if magic items were legendary and rare, like the Arthurian legends but those kind of items introduce problems in a D&D campaign. If an item is worth being legendary, then it's probably going to be overpowered when a PC gets her hands on it, and if magic items are rare, then only one PC has that legendary overpowered item, and that leads to party imbalance.

The current system, with a lot of little items that give specific bonuses seems almost evolved to match the game of D&D with its incremental advancement and character building.

So yeah, my only real gripe is that maybe there's a few too many item slots, and that it should be possible to make effective classed NPCs without loading them down with magic items that the PCs will either immediately don for an upgrade, or instantly sell to buy something better.

 

[Doug McCrae]

"why hell would somebody with a magic item want to sell it---unless it was cursed?"

Why wouldn't they? All sorts of rare and powerful items are sold in our world - F-16s, castles, Picassos, super computers, factories, ocean liners.

Why would masterwork items be available and not +1 swords, which aren't much better.

 

[JohnSnow]

I voted for Common, Glut, Trade, and Need, and almost voted for Boring as well. Allow me to explain why each, and why not the others.

"Common" is the biggest problem, and contributes to several of the others. The commonplace nature of magic items (not just +1 swords, but +4 swords, +3 Keen Flaming swords, bags of holding and everything else) is what makes "Trade" a problem. "Need" comes into play here as well. It leads to the situation where characters, at a certain level, decide they "need" to upgrade to the next "pip" on their bonus, and they start collecting every sword they come across so they can sell them in town and convert the gold they get to buy the next level of magic item.

"Glut" is a big problem, especially when combined with "Need." This is what leads to the "Christmas Tree Effect," where every piece of a character's gear is glowing with magical enchantment. In most stories, the greatest heroes have a weapon (or two), maybe some armor or protective device, and a couple other bits of gear.

"Trade" is a tricky one. The idea of a character being able to sell a magic sword doesn't bother me, except that they're doing it so they can buy another one, and that sale exacerbates the "Common" problem. I'd rather the characters had a way to upgrade their gear, or if their gear just upgraded on its own, rather than having them constantly sell their old magic swords. And buying a sword from someone just seems kind of unheroic to me - I just think magic swords should come as the result of a quest of some kind, even if they're a gift from someone for a heroic deed. On the other hand, I have no problem with the character being able to "buy" a sword by going on a quest for the NPC making it. And the same thing holds true for them making their own stuff.

"Need" by itself is a problem, but IMO only at the higher levels, not at the lower ones. There's nothing wrong with the character "needing" a magic sword, but when the system makes you constantly "Need" a "better" magic sword to be competitive, something is wrong. And when you combine "Need" with "Glut," things just get silly, as the character is constantly having to "upgrade" his primary weapon, secondary weapon, protections, enhancements and so on.

"Boring" is a problem only when combined with "Glut" and the extended form of "Need" (by X level, you need a +2 sword, and a +3 sword by X+3, and so on). Your first "magic sword" (+1) is fine, and at that level, it's not boring. But the need for ever-increasing numerical enhancement means that by the time you get to your 3rd or 4th magical sword, it's just lame. And don't get me started on your 3rd stat-boosting item...All that said, I don't think "Boring" would be much of a problem if you addressed the problems of "Need" and "Glut." It's pretty easy to make a "boring" item non-boring in a way that doesn't really enhance it's power much. For instance, Sting's tendency to glow when orcs were near is a good example of a power that made the weapon VERY distinctive, but not a whole lot more powerful. It swapped an early warning system (a potential advantage) for a glowing light (a potential disadvantage).

I have a couple solutions for ways to fix the system, but that's kinda beyond the scope of this poll.

 

[Storm Raven]

The poll is missing an option that indicates you don't dislike anything about magic items in 3e.