Magic Item Hate

[JohnSnow]

THANK YOU,

In the whole rush to crap on magic items, people tend to forget the REAL problem. Its not the magic items themselves, its the fact that PC are expected to wield magic.

Play Iron Heroes or Conan where players can't be wizards/clerics and pretty much EVERY damn magic item gripe will be fixed yet I haven't heard of many people willing to say D&D should be like Conan especially given that the game originally stated with two Magic Using classes to the one non magic using class.

Why do you think people call Mord's Disjunction a melee killer? Strip any level wizard of his magic gear in any edition and all you do is change how long it takes him to be effective and how long he STAYS effective (pretty much all the magic items duplicate spells thus said wizard just needs to cast them and he can't last as long as permanent magic items).

Strip the equivalent level fighter and he's hosed. Yet at the same time, the solution of making the fighter more inherently power-based also s frowned on.

Well, I think the thing is there are people who want their magical items. In addition, there are people who want their fighters to have more inherent powers. I don't usually think this is the same group.

My only gripe (to the extent that I have one) about inherent powers for fighters has to do with the nature of those powers. I don't know if you've read (or seen) Beowulf, but that's a good example. Beowulf, a high-level fighter, strips off his armor and weapons when fighting Grendel because "it wouldn't be honorable" to take on an unarmed opponent with all his gear. So Beowulf fights Grendel butt-naked and unarmed - and literally beats him to death, finally tearing off Grendel's arm and mortally wounding him.

Later in life, he fights a dragon with nothing more than a chain shirt and a dagger. Though the battle costs him his life, he once again wins.

I have no problem with fighters who can jump ridiculously high, swim ridiculously fast, strangle dragons to death, or inflict critical injuries without any magic weapons. That's pretty much 'par for the course' when it comes to high-level fighters as far as I'm concerned. A low-level hero may need a silver weapon against a werewolf, but Beowulf can probably just tear it limb from limb with his bare hands.

Where magic items need to come in for fighters is to allow them to do things that are outside the realm of their abilities. For instance, water-breathing or something that allows the character to fly should be a magic item. Against a flying dragon, a hero like Beowulf can either jump on top of it, brings it to the ground, or shoots or throws weapons at it.

The nice part about things like this is they're predominantly plot-based items. So at low levels, the DM can grant the PC a potion to give him that ability for a single adventure or even a single encounter. Items like that are "cool."

Now, I wouldn't mind a high-level fighter being able to hold his breath for a ridiculous amount of time. While there might not be an effective difference between being able to breathe water for an hour and being able to hold your breath for the same amount of time, there's a huge flavor difference.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's as much about "feel" as it is about the actual "power" of the ability. At least for me.

Make sense?

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

Or a story about how casters > non-casters. DR 15/silver hoses the melee guys but does nothing to stop spells.
I think I get the picture. You confused me earlier by talking about changing DR numbers to suit a low magic game. That made me think you care about the rules when in fact you don't. You ignore them.

I would strongly suggest you have a look at Amber or something similar. D&D 3e is probably the worst fit for your GMing style possible. Any rules-lite game, of which there are a great many, would also be better.

Yeah, the first rule in my DM/GMing style is to cheat. Now I will roll certain key points in daylight, but the DM screen allows me to take the game directions where the dice didn't want to go. I don't do it all the time, but I do it enough . Make sure the movie/novel level of excitement is there, even if you have to cheat to get it

While I've never played amber, I really like the concepts behind it. For those who don't know, there is an auction at the beginning of the game where you wager for your skills. Once won/purchased, you always win if your better then someone else. The best example is swordsman. If you spent all your points on your sword skill, whenever you dueled someone, you were going to win.

I'm currently running a 7th Sea game which for me meets my requirement of a rules light system. Its a very cinematic game that encourages players to do dramatic actions. Think Three Musketeers. It's a fun game system, a very cool world, and well worth a trip to your local used bookstore to snag a copy.

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

*) You mean "you're".

Silly spell checkers not reading my mind

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Boring.

Too common. I found an encounter with mind flayers was derailed simply due to magic items. The mind flayers were the regular CR 8 variety, except I changed their powers. I gave them some grimlock slaves (4th-level rangers) and their equipment was far superior (due to their few classed levels) than regular mind flayers got. It simply didn't make sense that the mind flayers would give their slaves more equipment, so I tried pooling the cash and giving the mind flayers sensible equipment... but it was just too much work. (I ended up dropping the grimlocks and using higher CR non-classed monsters, but it just wasn't the same.)

It also makes it difficult to draw up a thri-kreen pack (as an example); again I'd have to pool all the magic items and give them to one or two characters, with the end result being most of the kreen having pretty lame ACs. Same thing goes for any classed creature that uses little equipment.

Glut. I hate them as a palyer, I hate giving them to NPCs as a DM. It literally takes more time than assigning skills and feats.

Need. The worst of the list. DMs have to folllow inadequate guidelines (you actually have to give out more, despite the ridiculous amounts of treasure). Why do you think the Bag of Holding was designed? At least in 2e players could just ... not ... go looking for treasure.

Fantasy needs magic items, and I'd like to see wealth per level... just a lot less, and support for creatures that wouldn't logically use magic items.

 

[Ulrick]

Why wouldn't they? All sorts of rare and powerful items are sold in our world - F-16s, castles, Picassos, super computers, factories, ocean liners.

Why would masterwork items be available and not +1 swords, which aren't much better.

Magic items aren't for sale in our world either.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Magic items aren't for sale in our world either.

The equivalent - rare and powerful items - are.

Also many people in our world believe in magic. The services of those who think they can perform magic - such as witch doctors - are certainly available for a price. Fetishes, talismans and so forth, which are believed to be magical are sold.

 

[Nifft]

Fetishes, talismans and so forth, which are believed to be magical are sold.

And we need not limit ourselves to the present day. Consider indulgences.

On the other hand, sale of relics was strictly prohibited, which probably meant it was happening a lot.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Need followed closely by boring. Need feeds most other issues I have. If NPC's dont need items, then there wont be a glut of piddly ass +1 items to deal with.

I will be thoroughly disgusted if theres no magic item market assumed in 4.0 however.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

And because if you've spent a lot of character resources on becoming an axe master, a +1 sword isn't all that useful to you; you'll fight worse with a +1 sword than you would with a normal axe.

Que 4th editions increased importance placed on what type of weapon you use. Your axe fighter with axe maneuvers doesnt have a lot of use for anything but that.