Magic Items Aren't As Important Any More!

[airwalkrr]

In 1e, magic items were the . They gave you all kinds of bonuses you couldn't acquire otherwise. Now we have spells that do pretty much the same thing. Mage armor and greater mage armor make bracers of armor almost pointless, greater magic weapon and magic vestment make magical weapons and armor quite pointless. Greater resistance and superior resistance make cloaks of resistance practically a waste of time. Shield of faith and barkskin are offenders to a lesser degree. Some say "dispel magic changes all that," but these spells often have their caster level pumped up through various means, and even then, having a BBEG spend his action on dispelling magic is often not the best thing to do, Including a bunch of Otiluke's dispelling screens in every dungeon just because the party has lots of magic buffs is metagaming on the DM's part.

Spells that last all day are fine for low-magic campaigns where the PCs need something to balance the fact that they do not have powerful magic items to create the effect. But what about campaigns where magic items are supposed to be important and powerful? Suppose we cut back the durations of these spells a tad. 3.5 gave us the godsend of fixing the ability score buffs this way so let's take a tip from them. The hour/level ones are the chief offenders, so let's address them. What say we reduce mage armor, magic vestment, greater magic weapon, and similar spells to 10 minutes per level? That way, there is virtually no way to get the spells to last all day, but they still last long enough for a brief dungeon crawl.

 

[Harm]

Their limitation is that they're one target only. To buff an entire party would take the bulk of a character's spells for the day to do that (giving up 4 heals for 4 greater resistance), or a significant amount of gold or prep time for scrolls/wands. The items are better in the long run.

 

[Darklone]

If you change the world to be less magic item dependant and more buff spell dependant, I would expect Dispel Magic to be used more often than you assume.

Aren't there some nice feats out there that boost your CL for dispel/counterspell attempts? I know a 3rd party one... If you can use similar feats, even henchmen with a wand or scroll have good chances to dispel half or more of the PCs buff spells.

 

[Jack Simth]

Putting up dispelling screens for parties that rely heavily on long-running buff spells is only partially metagaming.

Consider:
The PC's won't be the only ones to think of this type of tactic; any adventuring party (by whatever name - special ops, spy with support, small mercenary company, whatever) trying to maximize their effectiveness is liable to do the same thing (although a lone infiltrator might be doing it with potions and oils with high caster levels, rather than direct spells; if you're not usually out and about facing danger, but you face nasty stuff for short periods of time (say, a 2 hour raid), then the 6,000 gp for two +5 Oils of Magic Vestments [one for shield, one for armor, the 1,200 gp for a +5 Potion of Barkskin, the 3,000 gp on a +5 Oil of Magic Vestments, and the 4,500 gp for five +5 Potions of Shield of Faith for a total of 14,700 gp looks much more attractive than the 50k for a +5 Shield and a +5 Armor, the 50,000 gp for a +5 Ring of protection, and 50k for the +5 Amulet of Natural Armor (total 150k)). If you want to be offensive, too, then it's an extra 3,000 gp for an Oil of Magic Weapon +5 or an extra 50,000 gp for a +5 enchantment to your weapon.

If a tactic makes perfect sense in character (buff spells rather than permanent items), then figure that it's going to be used in character by npc's, too. Thus, the party members wouldn't be the only ones using it; it would be a semi-common tactic.

Semi-common tactics have semi-common counters. Figure your party is at a typical balance point of permanent magic vs. temporary magic, and go from there.

 

[airwalkrr]

Party: fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric

Cleric prepares magic vestment and greater magic weapon for fighter. Two spells gone, not much of a problem. The other characters do not get as much benefit from it and usually have better things to do. Maybe GMW on the rogue for archery might be worthwhile, but even sneak attacking rogues are crunchy in melee and are best-advised to stay away until it is time for the "killing blow."

And that's just for a mid level party. Once you are high-enough, a single chain GMW gets the whole party and then some. And if you are a heirophant with reach spell, you can use the same trick with magic vestment. Besides all that, at high levels, a few 3rd and 4th level spells are hardly going to be missed.

 

[Jack Simth]

Party: fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric

Cleric prepares magic vestment and greater magic weapon for fighter. Two spells gone, not much of a problem. The other characters do not get as much benefit from it and usually have better things to do. Maybe GMW on the rogue for archery might be worthwhile, but even sneak attacking rogues are crunchy in melee and are best-advised to stay away until it is time for the "killing blow."

And that's just for a mid level party. Once you are high-enough, a single chain GMW gets the whole party and then some. And if you are a heirophant with reach spell, you can use the same trick with magic vestment. Besides all that, at high levels, a few 3rd and 4th level spells are hardly going to be missed.

Reach Spell is a +2 Metamagic feat, if I recall; you can skip the Heirophant levels if you use a higher-level spell slot and another feat on it.

 

[airwalkrr]

Reach Spell is a +2 Metamagic feat, if I recall; you can skip the Heirophant levels if you use a higher-level spell slot and another feat on it.

Are you playing devil's advocate? I had thought you were on the other side of this discussion.

 

[Jack Simth]

Are you playing devil's advocate? I had thought you were on the other side of this discussion.

I'm just trying to be helpful.

The simplest thing to do is to figure that the party is at the "standard" balance-point in your campaign world for such things, or at least close to it.

So a Targetted Greater Dispel Magic trap (which, incidentally, by the book, is only CR 6, give or take; a Disjunction trap is only CR 9, theoretically) is going to be pretty common in a world where everyone relies on buff spells. Goes great in the middle of the BBEG's throne room. You know, triggered by someone other than the BBEG and selected highly loyal minions moving at more than a walk (you know, like the hustle/standard action so common in combat?) anywhere in the room. So when the over-buffed Fighter charges, he no longer has his fly spell up for when he waltzes over the Illusory Floor/Pit trap checkerboard maze that is the floor between the audience and the BBEG's throne. You charge the BBEG, you get hit with a caster level 20 Greater Dispel Magic, THEN have to deal with the illusory floor maze. If you're using items, no biggie. If you're using spells and potions, you may have issues. Goes really well for when you Summon up some Large+ critters next to the casters.

Now, you don't have to put these in everywhere, even for the mega-spell-buffed party; just often enough to give them pause, and make them happy to use that +3 sword they found, as it still functions as +3 sword after the +4 Greater Magic Weapon on the rogue's bow has been wiped out. You counter the tactic to the point where magic items are a reasonable idea, and no further.

 

[airwalkrr]

The discussion on traps is a sidetrack, but I'll deviate from my own thread for a minute.

Part of the problem with using traps is not just finding a justification for having them, it is finding a way for the bad guys to come up with the cash to drop on such expensive projects. Have you seen how expensive magical traps are? I presume things are that way because the designers wanted to make them rare, and rightly so I might add.

Either way, having a bunch of dispel traps is a band-aid solution. I'd rather address the source.

 

[Jack Simth]

The discussion on traps is a sidetrack, but I'll deviate from my own thread for a minute.

Part of the problem with using traps is not just finding a justification for having them, it is finding a way for the bad guys to come up with the cash to drop on such expensive projects. Have you seen how expensive magical traps are? I presume things are that way because the designers wanted to make them rare, and rightly so I might add.

Yeah; spell*caster*500 gp and spell*caster*40 xp to make, or spell*caster*1,000 gp to buy. So a caster level 20 Greater Dispel Magic trap is 120,000 gp in wealth, and a caster level 10 Dispel Magic trap is worth 3*10*1,000 = 30,000 gp.

If you don't mind one-shot traps, a Glyph of Warding (Spell form, max 3rd level spell, uses the caster's caster level) costs a flat 200 gp, and a Greater Glyph of Warding (Spell form, max 6th level spell, uses the caster's caster level) costs a flat 400 gp. More if you need to hire it cast. It can also filter for alignment and creature type, so if the BBEG is only really worried about nonevil humanoids, it can be set for that, and the trick with sending a summoned critter through doesn't work.

I imagine the designers made them expensive because they didn't want players abusing them overly much. But magic traps don't mis-fire on their owners.

BBEG gets his money for it same way he pays minions. Same way he gets his magic items. Stealth theft, noisy raids, ancient treasure, mind control, con artistry, duped rulers, his own country, dedicated followers, being really old, Wall of Iron abuse, successful day trading or any other world-appropriet DM fiat. Traps have their own seperate CR, so it's not a balance issue once you include it in the encounter level. Make sure they aren't mobile (saleable) and they won't meaningfully impact Wealth By Level, either.

Or he might not be immune to his own traps, just really knoweledgeable about the people that actually constructed the place.

Either way, having a bunch of dispel traps is a band-aid solution. I'd rather address the source.

One way or another, the source is that you need to use Dispel more. It won't matter much whether the spells are 10 minutes/level (and are thus cast about twice per dungeon "day") or 1 hour/level (and this are cast about once per dungeon "day") they have the same effect. That can be critters such as the Babau, Balor, Glabrezou, Nalfalshnee, or Pit Fiend (possibly with a feat swaped for Quicken Spell Like Ability[{Greater} Dispel Magic]); that can be traps; that can be minions with wands or the BBEG with a level-appropriet metamagic rod of Qucken.

Dispel Magic and it's Greater counterpart are debuff spells, just like Ray of Enfeeblement, Glitterdust, Touch of Idiocy, Blindness/Deafness, Stinking Cloud, Ray of Exhaustion, Crushing Despair, et cetera. It just happens to be considerably more effective on people relying on buff spells rather than permanent magic items.

1 minute/level would slow it down, though; in most cases, they'd need to waste an action in combat on it, which might make them think twice.