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<blockquote data-quote="FireLance" data-source="post: 5840434" data-attributes="member: 3424">Admittedly, it isn't a perfect analogy, because I believe that the Oberoni fallacy tends to deal with intra-party, PC to PC balance issues, while the lack of magic items for the party as a whole is more a matter of party vs challenges balance. In addition, I believe that not using crit-immune creatures is probably more restrictive than not using high-level creatures, since it includes several classic opponents such as undead, elementals and constructs. The lack of magic items might prevent you from challenging the most powerful demon lords and archdevils, but that seems more &quot;logical&quot;.Fair enough, although the lack of magic weapons in pre-3e D&amp;D was a significant limiting factor for fighters in encounters with creatures that could only be hit by magic weapons.On the basis of absolutely no evidence or playtesting whatsoever, I think the difference is close enough that it would not be noticeable at the table. If it is, just raise the monsters' challenge one level at a time until you get to the desired state of balance. Mathematics and theorycrafting will only get you so far. After that, you need to use actual play experience and an iterative trial and error process to get closer to what you want. Yes, I know that in an ideal world, this should ship with the game. However having to do the work yourself does not make the game unplayable.You can't have it both ways. Either 5e will need a workaround for no magic item campaigns, or it will need a workaround for campaigns with plenty of magic items. The only difference is whether you subtract from the party's effective level for the lack of magic items, or add to it for their presence.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="FireLance, post: 5840434, member: 3424"] Admittedly, it isn't a perfect analogy, because I believe that the Oberoni fallacy tends to deal with intra-party, PC to PC balance issues, while the lack of magic items for the party as a whole is more a matter of party vs challenges balance. In addition, I believe that not using crit-immune creatures is probably more restrictive than not using high-level creatures, since it includes several classic opponents such as undead, elementals and constructs. The lack of magic items might prevent you from challenging the most powerful demon lords and archdevils, but that seems more "logical". Fair enough, although the lack of magic weapons in pre-3e D&D was a significant limiting factor for fighters in encounters with creatures that could only be hit by magic weapons. On the basis of absolutely no evidence or playtesting whatsoever, I think the difference is close enough that it would not be noticeable at the table. If it is, just raise the monsters' challenge one level at a time until you get to the desired state of balance. Mathematics and theorycrafting will only get you so far. After that, you need to use actual play experience and an iterative trial and error process to get closer to what you want. Yes, I know that in an ideal world, this should ship with the game. However having to do the work yourself does not make the game unplayable. You can't have it both ways. Either 5e will need a workaround for no magic item campaigns, or it will need a workaround for campaigns with plenty of magic items. The only difference is whether you subtract from the party's effective level for the lack of magic items, or add to it for their presence. [/QUOTE]

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