Magic Jar and Familiar

[Lucius Foxhound]

So I would say that if you choose to stay in the summoned monster (and it would be an easy thing to shift back into the receptacle), then you "disappear" when the summoning spell ends. If you can't get back to within range of your receptacle before the magic jar ends, you die, per the spell. Keep in mind that the caster probably has at least 8 hrs. to figure out a way to do this...

Where does it say in the spell description that you "disappear" when the summoning spell ends? Since the spell definitely says that it doesn't work across planes, and it's also made very clear in the spell description that if you're in a monster that dies, you go back into the magic jar, it doesn't seem to be that big of a leap to say that a monster who goes back to his home plane wouldn't take you with him or make you "disappear."

It doesn't say anything about "unless it's your familiar" in the highlighted sentence. The spell is pretty clear about what you can do while inside the receptacle. Assuming that familiars are a special loophole is a mistake.

Hmmm. If you want to go by what it "doesn't say" in the PHB, there's a whole host of rules that need changing. It also doesn't say in the spell description that the character's link with his familiar is severed. Not does it say that other mental links are severed.

The spell only says that you can attack (possess) creatures on the same plane. Once you're in the body, it works "as polymorph other."[/B]

Actually, this is interesting. The SRD is different from the PHB here. Magic Jar is a tad more powerful that Poly Other. The descrpition in the PHB specifically says that the character is given a creatures "automatic abilities" .. and it lists a troll's regeneration as one of them. You wouldn't get this under Poly Other.

Oh, and Tom ... it is YOU who needs to GET A GRIP, you MAGNIFICENT bastard, you.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Where does it say in the spell description that you "disappear" when the summoning spell ends?

It says it in the description of "Summon Monster," which I looked up since we were talking about it. Novel idea, eh? When the summoning ends, the monster "disappears." If you're jarred into it, you "disappear."

Hmmm. If you want to go by what it "doesn't say" in the PHB, there's a whole host of rules that need changing. It also doesn't say in the spell description that the character's link with his familiar is severed. Not does it say that other mental links are severed.

No, what I mean is that you shouldn't give yourself powers that aren't specifically granted by the spell. Does Cone of Cold make you impervious to cold for the (instantaneous) duration? Well, it makes sense that if you're projecting cold from your hands then cold shouldn't hurt you, right? And the spell doesn't say that you're not impervious to cold, right? Wrong, of course...

The spell give very specific guidelines about what you can sense from inside the jar. You're just a soul with a mind. I never said that a wizard wouldn't be able to tell the difference between his familiar and other beings (given the probable difference in HD involved).

But what it comes down to is interpretation. Yes, the spell says what you are able to sense, and yes, you still have a mind with which to contact your familiar. I've just read the magic jar and familiar's "empathic link" description again, and I can't see any reason why the link would be severed.

Then again, I also don't see any advantage to it. The familiar is still sensing types and positions, while the magic jarred mage is sensing life forces, and cannot determine type or position. How the familiar could communicate any useful targeting information is beyond me. Of course, "Master, they're about to smash the crystal!" would be a good thing to know.

The SRD is different from the PHB here. Magic Jar is a tad more powerful that Poly Other. The descrpition in the PHB specifically says that the character is given a creatures "automatic abilities" .. and it lists a troll's regeneration as one of them. You wouldn't get this under Poly Other.

Yes, I suspected as much. I'd agree and go by the PHB, since you're not changing into the creature...you are the creature.

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

Then again, I also don't see any advantage to it. The familiar is still sensing types and positions, while the magic jarred mage is sensing life forces, and cannot determine type or position. How the familiar could communicate any useful targeting information is beyond me. Of course, "Master, they're about to smash the crystal!" would be a good thing to know.

Actually, I was just thinking the same thing. What could a familiar tell you? "There's a big hairy thing about 10 meters from your body." This would have no benefit to you in the magic jar at all! You can sense that there's a big creature somewhere near you anyway. But yes, "someone's about to smash the crystal" would be pretty damn handy.

Yes, I suspected as much. I'd agree and go by the PHB, since you're not changing into the creature...you are the creature.

Hmmm... this begs the question: what are examples of other "automatic abilities" that are listed in the Monster Manual as "(EX)." Would a dragon's breath weapon count? Probably not ... but what else would count? If it's something that the character takes no active action to implement, wouldn't spell resistance count as an automatic ability?

This leads me to believe that this has been errata'ed.

Oh, and since this conversation has gotten civil, let me just bring it down a notch by calling you the biggest bastard who ever battled a beholder.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Not really an advantage. Sorry, Thanee.

Oh, and since this conversation has gotten civil, let me just bring it down a notch by calling you the biggest bastard who ever battled a beholder.

I've never seen a career player make so many "rulings." Wannabe DM. Poseur. Impostor!

 

[AuraSeer]

Actually, I was just thinking the same thing. What could a familiar tell you? "There's a big hairy thing about 10 meters from your body." This would have no benefit to you in the magic jar at all! You can sense that there's a big creature somewhere near you anyway. But yes, "someone's about to smash the crystal" would be pretty damn handy.

A familiar can probably tell you a lot, considering that it has human intelligence and access to all your skills.

If there's only one life force nearby, he'll tell you whether it's a foe, or a friend coming to see why you're unconscious. He can also tell the difference between the king you want to impersonate, and some random chambermaid passing by.

He gets a Spellcraft check to identify any spells cast nearby. When the enemy breaks out the Magic Circle Against Evil, you'll know possession won't work and it's time to return to your own body.

 

[Tom Cashel]

If there's only one life force nearby, he'll tell you whether it's a foe, or a friend coming to see why you're unconscious. He can also tell the difference between the king you want to impersonate, and some random chambermaid passing by.

Good points, but the effectiveness goes down when multiple life forces are present.

Great idea about the Spellcraft roll!

 

[Saeviomagy]

'You want the third guy from the left'.

 

[AuraSeer]

'You want the third guy from the left'.

While inside the jar, you can't target "the third guy from the left", because you cannot determine relative position. All you know is the number of life forces in range, their relative strengths, and whether or not they're undead.