Magic Jar, Versus Non detection

[Lareit]

I tried magic jaring a Rogue wearing an amulet of non detection.

The DM ruled that I can't detect the rogue's lifeforce due to the amulet, and ruled since i can't see him being in the magic jar, i can't trade souls.

I tried using that non detection clearly states it affects towards Divinations, and would have no effect on magic jar since it is detecting life forces, via Necromancy means.

He being dm means i was over ruled.

I'm just want to get this cleared up. With some more backing i can probally over turn this in the future

 

[Darklone]

Even if he rules that Nondetection applies (which it does not) you should have gotten a caster level check against the amulet.

 

[Korgan26]

1st I am assuming that you are within eye sight of the rogue and not attempting this through scrying (negated via amulet)

I would have to agree that since the amulet protects people from finding the rogue by magical means and you already know his location (by sight) the nondetection card is irrelivent. Your spell should work ok. I think what you have is a DM not wanting to be out smarted by a player.

Z

 

[GamerMan12]

In principle, a ruling by the DM should stand.

In this case he has so many options to stop Magic Jar working why did he pick one that doesn't stand up? An Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location offers nothing to stop a Magic Jar working. The amulet only stops location giving magic items like crystal ball and makes you need a caster level check for Divination spells to work. Magic Jar, which specifically says that it does not give you the exact location and is Necromantic is not affected by this amulet.

There are at least 5 ways to stop a Magic Jar from intially working on a specific Target:

1. Target makes his will save - this is the one I would use as DM - cannot easily be argued with, and means a re-try will automatically fail.

2. Target has Protection from Evil (or similar) from an item or spell cast on him. So rather than an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location, give the NPC a Ring of Protection from Evil. (A Ring of Prot Evil is a pretty sensible thing for an evil NPC to have, given the company he is usually in)

3. Target is not in line of sight of the Magic Jar. This is also pretty easy to arrange, if the target sees you cast the spell and/or your lifeless body slump to the gound he could just duck for cover, not knowing what is to happen next but just to be safer.

4. Target is not in range of the Magic Jar, the easiest for the player to overcome.

5. Target is in a group of characters, as the spell does not allow you to exactly locate the target. It would be random as to which one you got.


Additionally , destruction of the Magic Jar or a dispel magic either on the Magic Jar or on the possessed will end the spell.


Additionally, unless a player took extraordinary lengths to ensure that his body, the magic jar and the target were all safe, the chances of him dying are higher. Effectively there are 3 things, if any one of which are destroyed can mean the death of the character.

GM12

 

[Winternight]

In principle, a ruling by the DM should stand.

Yes and NO!
In combat or even in normal game situation the DM is right, you just have a short "I Don`t think so, DM".
But like Tim he decides. (and often wrong)
End of discussion.

But after the game (don`t forget after the game is before the game) you are free to argue and to contradict. And as a wizard you should be pretty shure how your spells work.
In the case w/ the rogue it was a Amulett of Nondetection with one chage of prot from evil.

 

[Nail]

First: Just to keep the game moving, you should restrict (but not eliminate) rules-wrangling during the session.

Second: Your DM was wrong. That can be thrashed out after the game.

Third: The Nondetection spell is very clear; it only works on divination spells. To whit:

The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells. Nondetection also prevents location by such magic items as crystal balls.

The list is specific. That's on purpose, rather than an "omission". Magic Jar is not on that list, nor is it a divination spell. Therefore, Nondetection does not prevent you from using that spell.

Moreover, the Magic Jar spell itself is not a "detect" spell....in fact, you can't even be sure who your victim will be!

You cannot determine the exact creature types or positions of these creatures. In a group of life forces, you can sense a difference of 4 or more Hit Dice between one creature and another and can determine whether a life force is powered by positive or negative energy. ......(snip).....

You could choose to take over either a stronger or a weaker creature, but which particular stronger or weaker creature you attempt to possess is determined randomly.

So it's pretty clear. Your DM was wrong. Tell him that.....in a nice way.

Finally: Shouldn't you have gotten a caster level check????