Magic Of Incarnum?

[Aleolus]

Woah. What point buy is that?!

-- N

It's not. That's what he rolled, when you take into account that Aasimar have a +2 Wis and Cha.

I thought that it was supposed to be a Soulborn build and not a Soulborn plus a non Soulborn class?

It was. He just took that level of Incarnum Blade recently, and has not yet had a chance to apply any of the bonuses from it. Which, at IB level 1, is shaping a meld with your sword and binding it to one of your least chakra (hands, feet, crown). He hasn't yet had a chance to do that. So everything you see for him is for him as a Soulborn.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Lawful Good
Aasimar (LA bought off)
Paladin 5, Fighter 4
Str 16, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 18
AC 17 (+5 armor, +2 dex) Touch 13, Flatfooted 18
Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +6
BAB +9/+4
Grapple +12
Weapons: Rapier with the Flaming property, longsword, and a light crossbow
Armor: Breastplate (-2ACP)
Skills: Climb +7, Concentration +9, Diplomacy +7, Heal +10, Knowledge (Arcana) +7,
Knowledge (The Planes) +8, Listen +4, Ride +9, Spellcraft +6, Swim +5
HP: 9d10+10
Initiative: +8
Skill Tricks: Healing Hands (On a successful Heal check to stabalize a dying character,
that char regains 1d6 HP)
Possesions: 100ft Hempen rope, Flint and Steel, 5 days worth of trail rations
Languages: Common, Celestial, Elven, Dwarvish
Money: 8290 GP
Feats: Extra Smiting*, Quick Draw, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon
Specialization (Rapier), Extra Smiting*, Improved Init
Class Features: Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 6/day (2 from class levels+4 from
feats), Divine Grace, Lay on Hands (20HP/day), Aura of Courage (Immune to fear), Divine
Health(Immune to Disease), Turn Undead, Special Mount
Affiliations: Fist of Valor (the church of Heironeous), Aff score of 5
Racial Traits: Darkvision 60ft, Daylight 1/day, Resistance acid/5, cold/5,
electricity/5, +2 listen and spot checks
Magic items on person: Ring of Evasion

The only thing this guy can't do that your guy can is get the Uncanny Dodge. Also I had to dip into ONE non-core feat to get the same build, Extra Smiting from Complete Warrior.

Note that I also get a mount, as well as spells and turning undead ability. Also my to-hit should be one tick highter with Weapon Focus.

Also, I think you have one too many feats. You should have a feat at 1-3-6-9=4 feats. If your game gives you an extra feat above what you should have, then I can tack one more onto my build.

DS

 

[Aleolus]

Tsk tsk tsk. You just copy/pasted my char, taking out the MoI stuff. That is not the same as writing up a character on your own, which is what I had to do with this guy.
You are mistaken in a few points, however, which I intend to clear up. First off, he has 2 bonus feats from Soulborn levels. One at 3rd lvl, one at 7th. Second, IMHO, Smite Opposition is better than Smite Evil, because Smite Evil can only be used on evil creatures. Smite Opposition functions exactly like Smite Evil, except it can be used on any creature who has one alignment component opposed to my own. Meaning he can Smite any evil, or any chaotic creature, making it more versatile.
Third, Sapphire Smite does more than just grant me extra Smites. It also increases the damage my Smites do by an amount equal to the amount of essentia invested in the feat. So for the cost of 1 feat, you can get several extra Smite uses, and extra damage on your Smites.
And finally, with your guy, Paladins cannot multiclass, except with classes that say that a Paladin can take levels of that class and still take levels of Paladin. From the order you gave the class levels in, I was under the impression that he started as a Pally, and took levels of Fighter, though I might easily be mistaken on that point. Either way, though, he will never be able to get above Fighter lvl 4, unless you want to stop taking levels of Paladin, permanently.

 

[Storyteller01]

Tradeoffs, yes. Specialist wizards trade, relatively speaking, one class ability (access to some spells) for another (more spell slots for some spells). That limitation doesn't spill over like I stated previously for incarnum characters.

Incarnum characters aren't getting a tradeoff in the same sense. All other character classes get full class abilities & full access to magic item slots. Incarnum classes get full class abilities or full access to magic item slots.

I don't see it as you do. :shrugs:

My two cents:

1) Look at it from a different angle; soulmelders can fill every magic item slot with worthwhile items/abilities (and switch those items out for others regularly) without spending insane amounts of cash/exp to do so.

2) Choosing to use a soulmeld over a magic item is no different than deciding which magic item you want in a slot (should the sorcerer keep wearing her Cloak of Resistance or wear the Cloak of Charisma [figure the items to be of comparable cost]??). Every character goes through something similar, usually with weapons. Soulmelders just have more options.

 

[Nifft]

It's not. That's what he rolled, when you take into account that Aasimar have a +2 Wis and Cha.

Reminds me of a Star Wars d20 RCR party we had. (RCR was back when Jedi were just plain better than everyone else.)

Our character concepts were two Jedi and one Scoundrel. I was a bit worried about the Scoundrel, how he'd fit in with the party, would the player feel ripped off, etc. Until I saw the stats he rolled, which were similarly amazing.

After a couple of sessions, we two Jedi were tempted to become Mr. Scoundrel's padwans.

- - -

For the sake of this argument, though, and because I'm interested in learning how Incarnum works (having bought the book a while back but never really taken the time to go through it carefully), could we try something?

Let's make characters based on 25 point buy. Someone who knows Incarnum, please make a really awesome character, and tell us why it's awesome (what it does that no-one else could do). Any level, but lower is better, because it's easier.

Then, we can see how these Incarnum characters compare to other benchmark characters -- Core, Psionics, ToB, Warlocks, etc. I'll try my hand at out-doing the Incarnum guys at their own tricks (without using Incarnum).

Thanks, -- N

 

[saucercrab]

Being able to have something in the slot is not the same as full access right?

These are not really body slots but they also can not use a shield very well and they do not get unnarmed strike damage with a crafted weapon without it being very special.

I guess I didn't equate armor & weapon proficiencies as traditional class abilities, like spells or sneak attack.

But as Nifft said, the slot for armor can still be filled by them (& instead of a shield, monk hands can hold other magic items, like rods). And their unarmed damage is just another weapon, not meant to combine with a crafted weapon; they can still wield (proficient) crafted weapons.

I guess there is also the shape changing magics and not being in a form that can wear or use items in some slots. A Druids main class feature can take away slots.

Now that's a good point. Luckily druids are on the high end of the class power scale (incarnum classes aren't ) & they don't get locked into wildshape.

 

[saucercrab]

My two cents:

1) Look at it from a different angle; soulmelders can fill every magic item slot with worthwhile items/abilities (and switch those items out for others regularly) without spending insane amounts of cash/exp to do so.

As I said before, I was hard-pressed to find bound soulmelds I'd rather have in lieu of traditional magic items for the same slots.

2) Choosing to use a soulmeld over a magic item is no different than deciding which magic item you want in a slot (should the sorcerer keep wearing her Cloak of Resistance or wear the Cloak of Charisma [figure the items to be of comparable cost]??). Every character goes through something similar, usually with weapons. Soulmelders just have more options.

I don't see many characters with multiple items for a single slot like that. Usually they stick with one option, & the benefits from other same-slot items are gained elsewhere (other slots, bought as slot-less items, etc.), but that could be attributed to my group's play style.

 

[Storyteller01]

As I said before, I was hard-pressed to find bound soulmelds I'd rather have in lieu of traditional magic items for the same slots.

Depends on the player then. I haven't seen a magic item that gives a +2 initiative bonus to all allies within 30 ft and bonus damage to your weapons effectively for free (bluesteel bracers). Or an item that gives claws doing acid damage as well as bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, also for free (maxes at +16 and 1d6 claw + 6d4 acid: Kruthik Claws). Then again, I haven't kept up with the source books.

I don't see many characters with multiple items for a single slot like that. Usually they stick with one option, & the benefits from other same-slot items are gained elsewhere (other slots, bought as slot-less items, etc.), but that could be attributed to my group's play style.

To each their own. But usually gaining the same bonus means paying for a custom item to fill another slot. Soulmelders don't have that problem.


Everyone's milage varies.

 

[Nifft]

Anyone who knows the system wish to take up the Incarnum Challenge (tm)? You make an Incarnum character which can do some tricks (damage or whatever), and others try to improve on it or beat it?

Thanks, -- N

 

[Kurashu]

On the magic items vs soulmelds, I will point out the feat Split Chakra. It allows you to not only allow a bind and a magic item to occupy the same area, but to also bind the item to the slot.