Making 1 skill from 2, good or bad?

[ciaran00]

A person can be better at rummaging through things. You learn to move things about in an orderly manner so that you don't end up covering a thing with something you've moved. BUT...

Search is not only about rummaging. It is about seeking for things, likely using senses other than your eyes. You touch the wall, you look at the wall, you tap on the wall, you feel for air currents and by that (and your training as to what to look for and how to interpret it--thus intelligence) you find the secret door, or the trap, or the hairline fracture in the floor.

So, what I am trying to point out here is that these distinctions are somewhat arbitrary. Searching is essentially an eye for detail, whatever that may be. This leaves Spot as being what... pure seeing skill? There is no separate ability, outside of being aware of one's surroundings in whichever way one wants... via searching or looking... that isn't quantified by something called "Observe." Obviously, this streamlining process can go too far... like combining Listen and Spot/Search... the limitation here is not too make a single skill point TOO powerful. If that is your intention, then I concede your point. Otherwise, I would argue that "spotting things", whatever that is, outside of the scope of achieving a task like locating something/somewhere/etc. is totally useless. Also, in my support, D&D makes a terrible distinction between observing people vs. phenomena/things. How arbitrary is that?

Now the Search/Spot thing is a whole different can-of-worms. I think that most of the ways Search is different from Spot should be folded into Disable Device

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Hell yeah. I also have a Craft: Traps that further distinguishes this.

ciaran00, which ability score do you base your Bluff on if it includes both Sense Motive (Wis) and Bluff (Cha)? That's an interesting take, but I do see those as separate skills. Even in poker, you might be able to put on a great poker face (Bluff), but not be able to read any of your opponents (Sense Motive).

I roll both of these into Wisdom. The reasoning is that a bluff, taken at face value, need not come from a particularly charismatic individual. It doesn't require Charisma, it requires for you to have your "street-smarts." In poker, if you can put on a poker face, you have a greater ability to see the same in other people. Are some people better at one thing than the other? Sure, but the extent to which this is true is about as significant as some people can use chains better to haul things than ropes. We don't need to split Use Rope over it.

The guy with warts and bruises with the distasteful personality just told you that he can wipe you and all your friends out with a word. That he is bluffing is dependent on his wisdom, not the particular flavour of his personality or his looks.

ciaran

 

[SylverFlame]

I roll both of these into Wisdom. The reasoning is that a bluff, taken at face value, need not come from a particularly charismatic individual.

But if charisma affects what people think of you, including such things as personal magnetism, why would you be more likely to believe the gruff and tumble streetwise jerk over the pleasant dim-witted nice guy?

 

[Grayhawk]

... Obviously, this streamlining process can go too far... ...the limitation here is not too make a single skill point TOO powerful. ...

True.

Which is why I wouldn't let Tumble e.g. govern more than it already does, as it's plenty worth the cost as it is.

(My reason for bringing up Tumble is that it was touched upon in the other thread I made about skill points, which I linked to in my post above this one.)

 

[Saeviomagy]

Benefits of combining all of the "avoid being detected" skills into one:

1. Opposed tracking checks!

2. No need for specific skills to avoid scent, tremorsense and blindsight!

3. Less rolls!

4. Invisibility (and other similar spells, like silence) can become simple situation bonuses!

Disadvantages:

1. You can't be good at hiding and bad at sneaking or vice versa (like that's common...)

2. Stealth becomes a bit more powerful (when compared with magic). Oh, wait - that's a good thing...

3. Rogues need less skill points. (solution... give them less??)

Benefits of combining the perception skills:

1. Mechanics for scent!

2. Mechanics for other nonstandard senses (rather than just 'you are detected')!

3. Less rolls!

Disadvantages:

1. Need feats to simulate someone who's good with his eyesight, but hard of hearing.

2. Rogues need less skill points (see above).

Hmm - seems like a net benefit to me.

 

[Grayhawk]

If Spot and Search were combined to 1 skill, what should the key ability be?

 

[Enkhidu]

A note on Search/Spot:

Back in 1st Ed, certian classes had an ability to "not be surprised" (because back then you had a separate surprise mechanic) that increased with level. Rangers and Monks both had it, as did several rogueish outdoor NPC classes. I believe that Spot was created specifically to mirror this ability.

That being said, I see a lot of problems with combining Spot/Listen and Hide/Move Siliently, but only if you are concerned with how it will affect invisibility (and, since invisibility is for so long been such a big part of D&D, I think you must take it into account). If, on the other hand, the distinction between sight and sound mean little to you and you simply want a "I'm not surprised" mechanic, then combining them will make things a bit easier.

 

[SylverFlame]

Okay, seeing how this thread is moving to the point of somewhat acceptance of combining the skills (and I would like to see where this goes), I'm going to throw in my two cents.

Spot/Search, whatever it may be called in the end, seems to me to be the realm of wisdom. My reasoning is that spot is already a wisdom and stat and I personally put common sense under Wisdom. So, if you see a box, common sense says open. If you feel a draft, then common sense says there is a crack and air is likely coming through, which means an open area on the other side.

The only thing is that I fear that too much of this sort of thing I have outlined above (ie. Common Sense = Wisdom), could turn the stat into a skill mongers dream. Of course, this could be an okay thing as well. Enh well...

(I should qualify this post by saying I still endorse seperate skills and a synergy bonus, though I am always willing to help people with house rules if they ask.)

 

[ciaran00]

But if charisma affects what people think of you, including such things as personal magnetism, why would you be more likely to believe the gruff and tumble streetwise jerk over the pleasant dim-witted nice guy?

Because you don't think the gruff and tumble streetwise jerk is lying when he says he's going to rip you a new one?

ciaran

 

[ciaran00]

If Spot and Search were combined to 1 skill, what should the key ability be?

Wisdom. You're careful when you're looking and you're careful when you are checking things over, making sure you don't miss anything.

ciaran

 

[SylverFlame]

Because you don't think the gruff and tumble streetwise jerk is lying when he says he's going to rip you a new one?
ciaran

I see your point, and indeed I agree I would believe him, but for a different reason. I am not believing him because he has brought me to his side by lying, I am on his side as I fear for my life. I see that as intimidation, something highly different from lying.