D&D 5E Making a Paladin

[Warpiglet-7]

I've seen this three times now. The paladin's damage output can be ... rather paltry if smite if your only source of extra damage, especially at low levels or in a many encounters per day game

I was thinking gwm as 8. Could do at 4 but wanted good con str and chr (16).

Would 0-4 really do that much more? I am not asking rhetorically. Because the decision before me is AC or +2 damage per hit—-going up to twice a rou d after fifth.

I see what you are saying—-a d8 plus str is not “a lot” by any means…

The only big boosts I know of are PAM and GWM…and I often take gwm. Was hoping to find a different path!

 

[Benjamin Olson]

It seems like, if you are really concerned about HP, unless you're evening out an odd Con score you're better off taking the Toughness feat than investing a full ASI in Con. Your level in extra hit points makes a difference a lot more often than +1 to a Con save. Of course if you start with an odd Con score to even out with the Resilient feat that's another matter entirely.

Also, people's mileage will vary, but I just don't see Paladins as needing that much of a boost to Con saves. Even if you are making concentration checks a lot time, those are overwhelmingly DC 10 saves. Now that may still be a bummer when you are a low level Paladin who only gets 2 or 3 spell slots a day, but having substantial limitations is just the experience of first tier player characters. Once you hit level 6 as a Paladin you are going to easily have a +4 or +5 on those saves, and from level 5 on you have a reasonable number of spell slots. Don't build your character overcompensating for whatever they were bad at in low level play.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

It seems like, if you are really concerned about HP, unless you're evening out an odd Con score you're better off taking the Toughness feat than investing a full ASI in Con. Your level in extra hit points makes a difference a lot more often than +1 to a Con save. Of course if you start with an odd Con score to even out with the Resilient feat that's another matter entirely.

Also, people's mileage will vary, but I just don't see Paladins as needing that much of a boost to Con saves. Even if you are making concentration checks a lot time, those are overwhelmingly DC 10 saves. Now that may still be a bummer when you are a low level Paladin who only gets 2 or 3 spell slots a day, but having substantial limitations is just the experience of first tier player characters. Once you hit level 6 as a Paladin you are going to easily have a +4 or +5 on those saves, and from level 5 on you have a reasonable number of spell slots. Don't build your character overcompensating for whatever they were bad at in low level play.

Interesting take! I am looking at your response vis a vis the others…

I am doing point buy so to have a little better stats I like the half feats but I do also see what you mean.

It’s cheap to cast another shield of faith if it’s lost. I honestly did not know it was bonus action so could keep fighting and still recast.

Protection from good or evil may not be worth resilient…

All in all still a hard decision. I am almost thinking get 16 ins str, con and chr by 4th and then at 8 take a big damage booster like gwm…

I also took a look at toughness. Could keep 14 con and then take tough…but of course one less for concentration Checks…but some say they are not that big of a deal..

 

[ECMO3]

wanted some feedback about a few options….

My friend sent a clip from Excalibur so I had to play an armored knight. I am playing a devotion Paladin in a starter kit. Of course I wanted to put my own stamp on it and ultimately get to upper tier one day. I did point but. We are technically third level but since this was so on the fly, DM is ok with me switching fighting style etc.

I just made my oath: devotion. I have the noble background (favored son of a middling earl).

I was thinking about long term options and short term ones. There are a few decision points:

A: start of with defense vs dueling style

B: take resilient con vs. warcaster

My thought was to play to defense early. I took heavy armor master at 1st. And thought it might be fun to cast divine shield and protection from evil to be an even harder target at times. And I would also cast bless in combat for me and the front liners at times.

I was thinking I would fight this way to 8th or 12th if we make it and then switch it to a big weapon and no shield vs BBEG.

So advice for item A and B appreciated…

A. Sword and board Paladin can be awesome and I would say either defense or dueling supports that build. The best thing a Paladin has is the Charisma bonus on all saves for not just you but party members. Keeping him alive and mobile is huge and smites still let you do good damage. If you are the only martial I would definitely take dueling. Otherwise either would be fine.

B. Not a huge fan of either of these on a pure Paladin, especially since boosting both Charisma and Strength are pretty important. Of the two I would take Warcaster probably, but the issue is you don't have great offensive spells to use with the AOO, especially with lower level slots, and you have no cantrips to use with it. If you took Warcaster though and started with an odd Charisma you could take Fey Touched with Dissonant Whispers at level 8 and boost Charisma. That would give you a good offensive spell to use on Warcaster AOOs once for free and for a 1st level slot after that, while also getting misty step.

Big Weapons are fine but I am not a fan of GWM unless you find a magic heavy weapon first. At 8th level when you would get the feat you can change fighting style so I would not let that drive my decision for "A" either way. Also it depends how many other martial front liners are in the party. IF there are a lot of front liners and they do not have GWM then it is a better feat than if you are the only front liner.

It really sucks when you find a bunch of 1-handed magic weapons and you only have one front liner and he took PAM or GWM. I was playing in a 3-person party with a Druid a PAM/GWM Echo Knight and my Undead Warlock. We found an awesome +2 short sword that did an extra 1d6 of psychic damage on a hit and it was my Warlock who ended up using it without proficiency.

 

[FrogReaver]

Fighting styles -

• Dueling is better if you know you want to use a shield and 1 handed weapon. This is the better style with feats (see below) and better style without accounting for magic weapons.
• Defense is better if you want flexibility in equipping the best magic weapons you find

Weapon setup thoughts

• Two Weapon Fighting with short swords and defensive style - best featless offensive setup pre-extra ttack. More attacks increase critical chance for divine smite while being able to do greatsword damage but spread over multiple hits. Due to the higher crit rate it's still not bad after gaining extra attack though it does lose out to damage to other styles a bit. Still crit divine smites are 'fun' and memorable. *Note IME one can usually have 1 short sword predrawn before combat starts - meaning you can draw the next as part of your first turn and attack with both.
• One handed Weapon and shield with duelist style - solid offensive and defensive mix (add in PAM and this is one of the strongest offensive and defensive routes available).
• Heavy Weapon and defensive style - gives solid options between damage and reach. Can also easily transition into this from early Two Weapon Fighting. Provides tons of flexibility for the Paladin depending on what magic items are found.

Spells vs Divine Smite -

• Spells are generally better as they allow you to shine in situations you otherwise could not, but divine smite is a strong general-purpose option.

On spells -

• Shield of Faith - not typically impactful, may get more mileage later. It requires the Paladin to take 10 attacks on average for shield of faith to stop 1 attack.
• Cure Wounds - very impactful. Can be used in combat to pick up an ally or out of combat to restore your hp or another allies.
• Wrathful Smite - very strong effect against a fairly common enemy type, but limited chance of landing early in the encounter.
• Bless - Offensively usually has minimal impact (mostly due to unfocused nature of turning misses into hits). Defensively can be great against enemies that often target saves or have a nasty effect that targets a save.
• Divine Favor - give me divine smite most any day.
• Command - such a useful and versatile spell when facing an enemy it will work against. Love the spell but it's often campaign dependent due to the language restriction.
• Heroism - The temp hp from the spell is nice, but the real reason to use this spell is to bypass fear for you or an ally. It's niche but impactful when it matters.
• Protection From Evil and Good - very DM Dependent. Strong effects, but can be bypassed by simply not targeting you.

*Remember spells can be prebuffed or used when you cannot otherwise reach an enemy

Feats -

• Heavy Armor Master - Solid Option. Helps with stats early. Provides solid increase in survivability.
• Toughness - I'd take +2 con over this. I'd take Resilient Con over both. Con saves prevent some nasty conditions and sometimes some high damage spells/abilities. They also help spell concentration and if you are going to be regularly using concentration spells in combat it's advisable to invest in keeping them up.
• Resilient Con - One of the best feats for a paladin. Also can arrange starting stats to be odd con so the +1 con isn't wasted.
• PAM - best damage feat for a paladin (though does heavily restrict weapon choice)
• GWM - the -5/+10 isn't very strong for a paladin as there are limited things that can be done to compensate for it. Though if you are divine smiting regularly you might proc the bonus attack on kill regularly.
• Inspiring Leader - take this over toughness any day. Solid option but paladins have so many important feats and ASI's that this is hard to fit in. I view this as equal to Heavy Armor Master in power.
• Mobile - this helps shore up one of the paladins biggest weaknesses. Can also enable hit and run tactics. It's a different playstyle but one worth considering IMO.
• Fey Touched - if you have access to this to get misty step this is one of the best feats out there for a Paladin. Having a mobility option is very important. It even lets you use your slots for misty step.
• Warcaster - less juggling weapon and concentration saves, limited benefit outside that unless you find a way to get access to the shield spell or booming blade. I generally would accept the weapon juggling when it comes up and go with resilient con over this.

Overall - I'd focus on more than just damage with a paladin. Alot depends on party setup and how many encounter per day and difficulty of encounters the DM throws at you. If I'm the primary melee character I'm going heavy defensive setup. If there are others I'm leaning more toward mobility options/support/offense.

 

[FrogReaver]

My personal choice at level 1 for the variant human feat would be fey touched or resilient con. If you are really worried about your survivability, then Heavy Armor Master is a good call. Inspiring Leader is very good too.

Fey Touched Version
One can start with 16 str, 8 dex, 15 con, 8 int, 10 wis, 16 cha (with fey touched)

At level 4 I'd take resilient con. At level 8 I'm going to no get more feats and focus more on str or cha.

Since I'd be going into this campaign blind I'd go with defensive style so I could use the best equipment found without invalidating my fighting style. That means for level 1-4 I'd dual wield short swords. Level 5-10 I'd use a greatsword or halbred. Level 11+ I'm switching back to two short swords. If I found a good magic weapon I'd use whatever it was. I'd use my limited slots for impactful things, like a crit smite, or smiting down a high priority target, or picking up an ally from 0 hp with cure wounds (lay on hands can work here), or using bless when i'm expecting the enemies target saves, command to skip a high priority targets turn (like a caster or melee brute), or heroism to end a fear effect on me or a melee ally.

 

[FrogReaver]

Don’t worry about either of those feats. While paladins do get good concentration spells and will get hit a lot, even if you lose concentration on a spell, you can simply bring up Shield of Faith or Compelled Duel or something as a bonus action to replace it. Both of them are good options, even though I prefer Bless given the choice. However, Bless is an action to cast. As a Devotion paladin you’ll want Sacred Blade running as much as possible, so the ideal pre-combat prep time is starting to get significant. You just won’t always (or even often) get two full rounds to bring your buffs online before combat starts. So keep a bonus action buff spell prepared too.

You can’t cast both protection from evil and shield of faith at the same time. They’re both concentration. Keep Shield of Faith prepared (protection from evil is an oath spell, conveniently) and use protection from evil when you have prep time before fighting undead or fiends, and shield of faith the rest of the time.

Maxing your your AC and enduring power with hvy armour master, shield, defence fighting style, shield of faith etc could be interesting, but with a one-handed weapon and no duelling fighting style you’re not going to hit very hard until you get to mid levels and can smite better & more often. That’s not a disaster by any means, but you might want to think about your group makeup and whether there’s anyone else who can take up the heavy hitter role. Potions of growth are pretty handy and long-lasting damage boosts that don’t need concentration, grab a few of those if you can.

IMO, the problem for paladins is their limited amount of slots. Losing concentration on 1 spell when you only had 6-7 slots to begin with is rough (level 5-7 paladin)

 

[FrogReaver]

Also, people's mileage will vary, but I just don't see Paladins as needing that much of a boost to Con saves. Even if you are making concentration checks a lot time, those are overwhelmingly DC 10 saves. Now that may still be a bummer when you are a low level Paladin who only gets 2 or 3 spell slots a day, but having substantial limitations is just the experience of first tier player characters. Once you hit level 6 as a Paladin you are going to easily have a +4 or +5 on those saves, and from level 5 on you have a reasonable number of spell slots. Don't build your character overcompensating for whatever they were bad at in low level play.

I think this depends on how much you want your paladin relying on concentration spells instead of smites. Smites are very good so it's easy to ignore concentration for Paladins. But oftentimes concentration spells used at the right times will be even better as long as concertation isn't lost.

 

[humble minion]

I think this depends on how much you want your paladin relying on concentration spells instead of smites. Smites are very good so it's easy to ignore concentration for Paladins. But oftentimes concentration spells used at the right times will be even better as long as concertation isn't lost.

I dunno, the big advantage of smites is that they're effectively free in the action economy. You don't get much oomph from them, given the resources you give up. An average of 9hp extra damage in exchange for a first level spell slot? Even at 10th level, you've got, what, a total of 25d8 points of damage if you smite with every single one of your spell slots, assuming no crits and no bonus damage from targeting undead or fiends? About 110hp, on average. At that level, it's not a lot in the grand scheme of things.

Generally, they're worth using if you've rolled a crit and the smite damage will be doubled, or if you REALLY need the enemy you're fighting to go down right now. But in general, you'll turn a fight much more effectively using your first level slot on Command than on smiting, and over time, Bless will give you even more.

The equation changes a bit once you get a second attack, and giving up an action to spellcast involves giving up on two attacks (possibly three, if Great Weapon Master treats you well) rather than just one. But smiting is definitely not always the best option.

 

[Ancalagon]

I dunno, the big advantage of smites is that they're effectively free in the action economy. You don't get much oomph from them, given the resources you give up. An average of 9hp extra damage in exchange for a first level spell slot? Even at 10th level, you've got, what, a total of 25d8 points of damage if you smite with every single one of your spell slots, assuming no crits and no bonus damage from targeting undead or fiends? About 110hp, on average. At that level, it's not a lot in the grand scheme of things.

Generally, they're worth using if you've rolled a crit and the smite damage will be doubled, or if you REALLY need the enemy you're fighting to go down right now. But in general, you'll turn a fight much more effectively using your first level slot on Command than on smiting, and over time, Bless will give you even more.

The equation changes a bit once you get a second attack, and giving up an action to spellcast involves giving up on two attacks (possibly three, if Great Weapon Master treats you well) rather than just one. But smiting is definitely not always the best option.

I completely agree with you... but at low levels, you only have a few spells per day at low levels (as you say, once you get to level 5 you have 2 attacks - and more spells!). You need something a bit more dependable, less resource intensive. And I think that it's either a big weapon or shield + dueling.