Making big fights with weak monsters fun.

[Reynard]

Use the mob template?

Aargh!

I can't believe I didn't think about making them a mob. The DMGII is one of my favorite 3E books, and the mob rules are lots of fun. I was so concerned with placing 52 minis on the board that I got tunnel vision.

I didn't use the grappling option because these are "dead soldiers of Pax Tharkas whose corpses have been infused with the evil that permeates their crypt" type zombies, so I had them still swinging. In the end, it turned out boring as all get out.

Well, chances are the PCs will be facing a company of goblins, hanbgoblins and/or draconians soon, so I can try a few different things with different tactics. one of the problems is that once you fill up the spaces around the melee fighters, the baddies end up getting mowed down like so much hay.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I ran a combat recently with 10th level PC's taking on around 30 NPC's mostly 2nd-3rd level.

Key Elements:
-Interesting battlefield
The PC's were defending a church they had just reclaimed from an evil cult. There were three doors in front, as well as two bell towers that the bad guys could climb in through that led to doors near to those three entrances. Also, a slightly tougher group of bad guys were coming into the main church sanctuary from a hidden place inside. The PC's had to defend multiple locations, mostly with two or three PC's trying to hold off a half-dozen NPC's each. PC's were running from place to place trying to back up each other as needed.

-Attack in Waves
The assault happened in about three waves, so that things were drawn out, and PC's had the opportunity to be drawn out of position, leaving vulnerable spots in their defenses. This also has the effect of not letting spellcasters overwhelm the enemy with one or two spells, as does the multiple routes of attack mentioned above.

-Simplify where possible
I had a couple of major NPC's who were seriously detailed out, but most were generic - in this case 2nd level barbarians led by a handful of 4th level barbarians, supported by three 3rd level clerics. Each one was pretty simple and generic - same stats, same HP, same AC. I tried to give each type a shtick - the barbarians all used dire flails as their weapons, explained as a cultural thing. The clerics had a feat that allowed them to drain HP from people in their area and recover it as HP for themselves, explained as a cultist specialty. I wrote down a lot of the sta block info in a super-simplified, almost 1E looking stat block ( Barb 2, Atk +4 1d10+4, AC 14, for example) while keeping the full stat block handy if I needed it for skills, etc. I built all the NPC's in E-Tools, which made this easier.

Put these all together and it created a pretty memorably intense combat that had a lot of PC's near death, forced them to sacrifice their Shield Guardian to protect their flank at one point, and was very well-received by my players.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

One thing Piratecat already mentioned is to go into some more detail about HOW they actually are trying to do damage to the characters...basically, a zombie is trying to munch on his victim (doesn't have to be the brains, even), and telling a player "As your fighter pulls his arm back, the dents left by the zombie's teeth fill with blood and start to sting" will get some attention even if it's only 1 HP damage. Going for more on higher damage ("The rotten head jerks back, taking a chunk of your flesh along, which the zombie gobbles down with a bloody grin") will drive it home that the characters won't just get killed, they will be eaten! And for some reason (ask your lizard brain for that ), being eaten (alive, even) is a hell of a lot more scary to humans than "just" dying.

If you add a chance of the wounds contracting some kind of wound fever (few things more filthy than zombie teeth, I'd say ), it will make the players even more nervous about successful bite attacks.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

It can be done, but it is very difficult to make such a fight genuinely challenging for the players past a certain point. I think the cutoff for standard Hobgoblins / Orcs (the 1HD fodder) presenting a real challenge without mob rules is 5th or 6th level. Once you start getting iterative attacks, going melee against a warrior is just not an option. The standard AC for the fodder will suck, and the typical bonus on a warrior is +9 (assuming 4 points for Wpn Focus, magical weapon, and str bonus of +2 on a 5th level character). Adding in Cleave and / or Great Cleave makes it even worse.

If your party has access to Cleave, Combat Reflexes + Reach weapons, or good area control spells, things get even harder for the fodder. Essentially, you need to start throwing in some dedicated support types, or CR appropriate champions. Happily, there are a number of things you can do to make life harder for the players.

1) Terrain considerations are key. If you can give the Fodder decent cover and put some Difficult terrain between them and the players, the fodder can get a few free rounds of ranged weapons fire, and prevent the players from using 5 foot step. Using natural darkness can also deny line of sight, which prevents most casters from targeting specific locations.

2) Traps: If the ambush is prepared, you can also throw in various traps to further damage and hinder the players.

3) Support: Fodder opponents have a craptastic attack bonus. But this can be improved on easily. Bless and Prayer work for the clerics. A Bard can do some pretty nice things too to kick up attack and damage. From the PHB 2, a Dragon Shaman's Aura's can also enhance to hit and damage output.

4) Champions: Disarm, Sunder, and Trip are of great use. Have the champion disarm, and then have a fodder type pick up the weapon and run off with it. Taking away a primary weapon will have huge impact on a player even if he does have a backup weapon. It takes away Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, the magical weapon bonus, and weapon specialization benefits, and for some weapons, it negates reach. Trip turns a +2 flanking bonus into a +6 bonus. Also, getting up from Prone and drawing a weapon provoke AoO's from all who threaten. Provoking an AoO when surrounded by 4 or so fodder types is dangerous.

5) Spell choice: Support casters should go for spells that either cut line of sight / line of effect, or counter the players abilities. Dispel Magic is king, because fodder are very vulnerable to battle field control types. A web spell will take out full sized rooms of fodder. Also, any summon monster spell that can give the players a beast with damage reduction is a huge pain in the ass to deal with. If the players like the Celestial Bison / Fiendish Ape, then you need to have a plan in mind to deal with that.

The other advice given here is good. Since you are in Dragonlance, the Baaz draconians are great fodder. The chance to disarm is a danger to the players, and it cuts down on the need for a champion type to do so. Try to exploit the Glide ability as a sort of 'para trooper' attack to get to the back ranks.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[interwyrm]

Well, this is a slightly different sort of encounter... but I'm hoping it will be fun.

Have the weak monsters (zombies in your case, lizardmen in mine) exist only to make it hard for the PCs to get to and slay the main combatant (in your case this could be some kind evil cleric or powerful undead, and in mine its a green dragon). If the weak monsters have hp less than 6 or so just write a dash instead. If they get hit, they are either dead or incapacitated. Also write a dash for their saves. If they get hit with a spell, they fail it. Keeps the bookkeeping simple.

Then, have your main combatant enter and exit the combat unexpectedly. Attack, flee/invisible/etc, return and do more damage. Have the supply of weak monsters be fairly infinite until the major threat has been taken care of.

Oh, and in a combat like this, you don't really need to roll the weak monsters attacks at all. They aren't there to do damage, they are there to get in the way. You can describe them attacking though, and if you do a good job then the pcs will consider them a threat. (You might still want to roll some dice behind your screen to give the impression that they are as well).

 

[el-remmen]

From "Out of the Frying Pan" Session #44

Kazrack held the knotted end of the rope between his feet, as he held the length tight to his chest. Derek and Jeremy grunted as they lowered him into the rent in the floor of the main chamber, and the rope bit into the earth underneath the tile, sending a rain of pebbles and soil down on the dwarf. The other end of the rope was fastened to one of the large pillars. The earthen area between the floor of the chamber above and the ceiling of the chamber below was just nearly fifteen feet. Kazrack tensed as he felt his feet go past the threshold of the misshapen shaft and into the room. A moment later he was hanging in the room, the floor a little more than six feet below him. The chamber down here was about the same size as the one above, and the columns above had been anchored down here. There were four round shafts into stained white stone on each side that led off to the left and right, and he could see the flailing limbs of zombies sticking out the earthen ceiling. There was movement, and suddenly three more of the undead things dressed in dirty white servant’s clothing came lumbering towards the dwarvish bait.

“Natan-ahb! Fill me with your divine might so that I may turn these abominations from your sight,” the dwarf bellowed, but the zombies did not halt. The dwarf closed his eyes and brought a hand to his bag of runestones about his neck, and called to his god again. He heard the things turn and scramble away, and he was lowered the rest of the way on to the dirt floor of this lower chamber. There were empty sconces on the columns, and the zombies were climbing back into the shafts, which were about five feet off the floor.

Jeremy swung over the side and began to make his way quickly down, only occasionally using the rope to steady himself. Above, Beorth awkwardly climbed over the side and tried to shimmy down the rope, while using his feet on the shaft wall to steady himself. A little more than halfway down, he lost his footing and the rope burned through his hands. He slammed the back of his head in the dirt and a cascade of stones preceded him. Jeremy hugged the wall as the clumsy paladin scraped past his back, just barely avoiding getting knocked down as well. Beorth slammed into Kazrack, and knocked them both prone, winding them.

Jeremy snickered, but the sound of the low moaning of the undead and the shuffling of their feet came to him from below when the sound of the falling dirt had settled. He dropped down and nimbly swung out of the way of Kazrack and Beorth. The dwarf was already on his feet, but Beorth was stunned, trying to stand and swooning, as he would collapse again.

“Natan-ahb! This place is overrun with evil! Again, I implore you to fill me with your essence so these thing may flee and let us do your good work!”

The paladin’s helmet glowed with the light of a spell, so Jeremy could see that while two zombies were fleeing, one more was coming from his left. He did not see that one was emerging from the darkness behind him, ignoring Kazrack and Beorth to mindlessly go for the closest target. It reached out to grab Jeremy’s neck. The Neergaardian was unaware of his danger, when suddenly there was a grunt and the sound of something falling behind him. He turned quickly to see Derek had dropped from somewhere further up the shaft and landed on a zombie. Now the young huntsman and the animated corpse struggled to get back to their feet.

“You’re almost as crazy as I am,” Jeremy said mouth agape.

Beorth cleared his head and stood, and with a quick motion of his long sword lopped the head off the prone zombie. It convulsed for a moment and then stopped moving.

There was no time to relax. There was rumbling sound and more dirt began to fall from the ceiling. There was a cascade of stones and soil, as five zombies dropped in the chamber from the ceiling, knocked loose by the slight tremor. Dust filled the air, and even where the magical light emanated vision was hampered.

Below, Jeremy had both of his blades out in a flash and chopped at one of the zombies that fell near him (widening the shaft at the bottom). It looked up and the blonde warrior buried his longsword in its forehead. It fell back down and stopped moving.

Above, Ratchis began a frantic, but measured descent, wanting to help his companions but worried he might fall and let loose more zombies and or even collapse the whole ceiling on those below.

Beorth wiped dust from his eyes and chopped weakly at a zombie reaching out at him. It had a few wiry strands of black hair coming from its head, where its cracked skull was visible under a thin gray scalp. The thing raised its fists to slam the paladin, but suddenly Derek was on his feet and chopping down with his battleaxe. The zombie was now pieces of inanimate decaying meat on the ground.

“Again, I call on thee, Father of All Dwarves to cascade from me like the mighty waters of your cup!” Kazrack bellowed, again trying to turn undead, but it failed.

The newly arrived zombies got to their feet, while another came lurched from the darkness and fell towards Beorth, who moved aside easily avoiding the awkwardly moving thing. This one had been a woman in life and her flaccid shriveled breasts were thick with black veins.

Ratchis finally jumped down.

Jeremy hacked at another zombie with the tip of his long sword and was forced to yank it back as it got stuck in the thing’s breastbone. It did not fall.

Beorth called to Anubis to enchant his blade, while Ratchis and Kazrack moved forward to meet the coming dead.

Blodnath climbed down and jumped to the floor, to find them all engaged with zombies.

Black ichor was spurting weakly from the stump of a zombie’s wrist, as Jeremy’s blades whirled magnificently in the bobbing light of Beorth’s helm.

The chamber was filled with the sound of the hacking of dried decaying flesh and the cracking of bones. The dirt floor was soon sopping with ichor and blood as the Fearless Manticore Killers spread out, calling to each other when more zombies were spotted in the dark corners. More zombies were emerging from the horizontal shafts on one side of the chamber.

Blodnath crept along the walls, finding the cowering zombies that had fled from Kazrack’s display of divine power, as sliced their hamstrings. When they fell, he’d hack at their skulls over and over with a wood-cutting hatchet, as his short sword was not as effective against the corporeal undead.

“Beorth, when you are done there are three more in the corner on your left,” Kazrack called to the Paladin of Anubis, as his dwarven vision allowed him to see where the magical light could not reach.

More and more emerged from one of the set of shafts, and Jeremy moved directly in front of one, hacking limbs as they emerged, creating a nasty pile of flesh and limbs at his feet. Soon, he and the rest of the party were covered in slimy black ichor. Derek wiped the stuff from his eyes, and suddenly noticed a zombie lurching towards him. Instinctively, he swung his axe, and he felt the resistance of the thing’s neck for a mere moment, and then giving way. The zombie’s head flew across the chamber, but its body kept moving, for it could still seek out life to snuff even without its head. It slammed black fist into Derek’s face, and the young huntsman groaned.

“No need to lose your head!” Jeremy quipped, and this time everyone groaned, but the Neergaardian had grown cocky, and as he rushed forward to rip out the headless zombie’s guts, he stepped on the head and lost his footing as it rolled away. Jeremy tried to turn his body to slow his fall, but his head struck a pillar and he was stunned. The headless zombie fell over and twitched for a moment and then stopped.

Kazrack hustled over to the deep niches the zombies were emerging from, and cut the arm from another that was emerging. It fell awkwardly from the round passage, and he chopped down on it. It stopped moving, but the dwarven rune-thrower was so involved in slaying that one that he did not notice one emerging from the shaft immediately next to him and turned to look too late. Undead arms reached out and grabbed hold of him and starting dragging him up into the shaft with the strength of a dead laborer’s limbs.

Kazrack roared and broke free of the grip and nearly tripped as his booted feet touched the ground again. He stepped away and whirled around. Behind him, he could hear Ratchis calling to his goddess to heal the many scratches and bruises he was suffering from.

Jeremy got up to all fours, and the stumbled to his feet shaking his head.

Derek’s arms began to throb from swinging his battle-axe back and forth relentlessly, and Blodnath having finished the turned zombies crept back to the rope.

But there was no time for rest, more and more of the black-haired zombie with graying skins stretched taught over their skulls, and dressed in dirty workman’s clothes, some with leather aprons that still held rusty chisels, shears, spades and other tools, continued to emerge from the shafts. Already over a score of hacked zombies lay on the chamber floor, but there seemed to be no end to the source.

“Anubis, preserve us,” Beorth said under his breath.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Use the mob template?

Is that OGL? (I've never seen it.)

 

[Wik]

Put a time limit on it.

Sure, 52 Zombies is nothing for your PCs. Fair enough. But if they've only got two or three rounds to do it in...

That's something else.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The original poster is asking how to make big fights with weak monsters fun. Upping the level of the monsters isn't really a solution.

I'm not sure it can be done unless it's sort of a fast battle where the players get to show off how far they've come.

I am trying something out, that mixes things up a bit.
First off: I don't think it is really possible out of the box. There might be some possibilities with using terrain creatively or effectively, but I think it puts more emphasis on the terrain than on the monster themselves. (If for example you would have 40 ft chasm all over the terrain, the Zombies could bullrush the PCs. Since that's just an opposed strength check the relative levels are nearly unimportant. Effectively, you just gave them an 4d6 points of damage attack - and increased their attack bonus to more or less match that of the PCs defense.)

The primary problem of lower level monsters are their low attack modifiers, defenses and save DCs. If tthe players cannot be hit, always hit the monster, and can ignore the enemies extraordinary/physical attacks, they won't care much.

My "bugfix" is to actually increase the level, but keeping hit points low (and also not changing damage). I'd increase saving throws only if the ability deals some kind of hit point damage or "harmless" status effects (nothing that takes a character out of the fight), and might even replace abilities (it too much boils down to rolling a 1 for the PCs, and that is to much of a gamble for my taste.)

Basically, half the hit points, reduce the CR by 2. After that, consider reducing damage by half, or halving hit points again for another -2 to CR. The important thing is: The enemy can put up a fight for a very short time only. But this short time counts. If you'd use the standard monster, it will survive an equal amount of time, but be ineffective, and thus feel pretty inconsequential.

Maybe if we get more information on the D&D 4 rules for monsters (and their Minions and Boss rules), we might be able to "steal" the concpets and incorporate them in 3rd edtion.

 

[Merkuri]

I like the idea of giving them a disease of some sort. They don't hit often, and they die easily, but if a PC does get hit they're in trouble, and with that many enemies you're bound to get hit at least once. Perhaps use something 4e-inspired: each hit gives the PCs 1 point of "disease potential", and once they get 5 or 10 points they're infected. Now the trick is to try and get rid of the zombies or stop them before they infect everyone.

Mob template is also good, though.