HeavenShallBurn
First Post
QFTImp said:
its much easier to boost the PCs once than to adjust every encounter to account for lack of the assumed power curve.
Making "level" king again in 3.x
- Thread starter Reynard
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its much easier to boost the PCs once than to adjust every encounter to account for lack of the assumed power curve.
shilsen
Adventurer
Reynard said:
I can't speak for other people, but there are multiple reasons why I suggest the former approach. Firstly, that I think it takes significantly less effort than the latter. If you increase PC power to match the effects of gear, you only have to do it for each PC. If you're going to reassess the enemies to account for the PCs' lower bonus totals, then you're reworking (or at least having to reassess) each and every encounter they would have. The latter also requires significantly more ad-hoc judgements than the former, I think. And if you take the latter approach, there's a much steeper power shift between buffed and unbuffed PCs, since they can benefit from all the spells that are normally replaced by gear. So not only is there potential for more paperwork, but you're implicitly encouraging PCs to focus significantly on buffing spells, which can be fairly boring. At least for me.
Having (and continuing to) run a game where I've used the system I suggested, I'm quite certain that it's the better approach to take, but then I was quite certain even when it was just a theory I had.
shilsen said:
I hadn't thought of it that way. Good point. Buff spells, given the way their durations are designed (especially in 3.5) and how bonus types interact, it does create a whole lot of unneccessary paperwork.
Being someone who tends to use home-brewed adventures, though, the other approach is "easier" in the sense that I only have to deal with a few creatures/foes at a time. If the Big Bad is a vrock, for example, I only have to examine the Vrock in relation to the less-geared-up PCs, not the whole of the MM.
It is an interesting conundrum and I think further thought and discussion is necessary.
shilsen
Adventurer
Reynard said:
Thanks. One of the primary reasons I used the aforementioned rules in my campaign was so that I could do away with PCs buffing themselves up and tracking the stat changes. They still buff themselves, of course, but with things like Death Ward and Freedom of Movement, which deal with conditions and situations rather than things which affect stats and numbers.
What I meant was that every encounter/creature you use has to be evaluated individually vs. the less-geared-up PCs. But if the less-geared-up PCs have the same stats (or very close to it) as the geared-up PCs, then one can use the creatures with a lot less evaluation needed. Of course, under any system, there's still a lot of judgement to be used by the DM, but I think a reduction of the workload there is a good thing. BTW, I only use home-brewed adventures too.
Quite probably. At the end of the day, I figure every DM should find what works best for him and his group and work to achieve it.
Scurvy_Platypus
Explorer
Well, if you're looking at reworking creatures, it's kinda hard to go wrong with the stuff Upper Krust did. It was used (with permission) in Grim Tales for their Creature Creation. You can either pick up Grim Tales (a pretty groovy toolbox book), or just buy the pdf (which comes with an Excel spreadsheet to handle the calculations for you) here: http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=18836&it=1
Upper Krust also has his work posted here, although I've mislaid the link right now. Honestly if you're interested in it, I'd just drop the $8 and buy the pdf & excel sheet. I own Grim Tales and went ahead and bought the pdf just for the sheet.
It's been explicitly mentioned more than once that Dragons for example are undercosted deliberately in terms of CR. WotC designers (or whomever) felt it would make the fight more meaningful or epic or something like that.
The Creature Creator also contains the reworked CRs for the SRD critters, so you don't have to worry about recreating those.
Since it covers all the different aspects of creating creatures and their powers (including spell-like abilities), it also basically means that if you're willing to put some work into it, you've got the tools to give PCs various powers/abilities that mimic spells or whatever, and have an explicit measurement as to how that's going to affect things in terms of power (at least in the mechanical sense).
Like Hussar said, there's always the option of capping the level of the game. There's the whole E6 thing floating around which might work for you, although it's not for everyone. I myself have just started a game, and am planning on capping it at 8th level.
Upper Krust also has his work posted here, although I've mislaid the link right now. Honestly if you're interested in it, I'd just drop the $8 and buy the pdf & excel sheet. I own Grim Tales and went ahead and bought the pdf just for the sheet.
It's been explicitly mentioned more than once that Dragons for example are undercosted deliberately in terms of CR. WotC designers (or whomever) felt it would make the fight more meaningful or epic or something like that.
The Creature Creator also contains the reworked CRs for the SRD critters, so you don't have to worry about recreating those.
Since it covers all the different aspects of creating creatures and their powers (including spell-like abilities), it also basically means that if you're willing to put some work into it, you've got the tools to give PCs various powers/abilities that mimic spells or whatever, and have an explicit measurement as to how that's going to affect things in terms of power (at least in the mechanical sense).
Like Hussar said, there's always the option of capping the level of the game. There's the whole E6 thing floating around which might work for you, although it's not for everyone. I myself have just started a game, and am planning on capping it at 8th level.
an_idol_mind
Explorer
Reynard said:
One of the reasons I've found it useful to increase PC power in lieu of items is that certain adventuring classes are more reliant on magical items than others as they increase in level. In a setting where finding a +1 sword is rare, fighters are even more dwarfed by spellcasters, because the spellcasters don't need magical items to be effective. In a campaign with no magical items at all, a 20th-level fighter is dealing out a maximum of 1d8+Strength when he hits, while the 20th-level wizard is stopping time and belting out meteor swarms. Adding in some inherent bonuses allows you to balance the non-spellcasters a little better than simply toning down the challenge level of an encounter.
Aus_Snow
First Post
I was deliberately going for an extreme (though *hardly* the most 'badass' extreme I've seen for a 20th level Fighter, not by a long shot.) I already knew that what you're saying is also 100% true.shilsen said:
Mind you, extreme would no doubt involve 1, 2 or 4 levels of Fighter, if any.
Anyway, it was just a reaction to the rather inaccurate statement I quoted. Overreaction, maybe. OK.
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