Malebranche CR

[Garnfellow]

As I paged through my copy of the Monster Manual II, I lighted upon the Devil, Malebranche. Here's just a sample of the stats on this brute:

Huge Outsider; HD 16d8+ 96; HP 168; AC 24; Melee huge masterwork trident +25/+20/+15/+10 (2d8+15) and gore +22 (2d6+5); SA charge, fear aura, improved grab; SQ baatezu traits, DR 25/+2, regeneration 8, SR 20.

And this all adds up to a whopping CR of . . . 9? Given the HD, damage potential, DR, SR, and regeneration, to me this 9 CR screams DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!

Exhibit 1: Within the last week I ran a series of playtests on a monster of my own (the Dolorous Worm, detailed over in the Homebrew forum) -- a 16 HD magical beast with the fiendish template. The Worm's stats are in line or somewhat weaker than with the Malebranche, but I consistently arrived at a CR 12 for the lowly Worm.

Exhibit 2: The devils in the MMI are probably not a good check on CRs, especially given what we've seen of the 3.5 Pit Fiend. But the Manual of the Planes has the Goristro, a 16 HD Huge demon very similar in power to the Malebranche, with a CR of 13.

Does anyone know if WotC has issued any errata on the Malebranche? A CR of 9 seems criminally low, and my guess is that a better number would be somewhere around 13. Or am I missing something here?

 

[The Serge]

Well, if one goes with WotC's own CR guestimator, then yes, the CR is really low.

I came out with a CR of 16 for it. That may be a little high, but not too much considering what that thing can do. It hits as a 16th level Fighter. Sure, it doesn't have all of the Fighter's feats, but it does have a very high Str, SR, DR, and Regeneration. It can also fly. Finally, there's no telling what kind of magic items it can wear as part of its CR...

I think a CR between 15 and 17 would be more accruate.

 

[Garnfellow]

Serge,

I also ended up with a CR 16 using the Guestimator.

And you bring up an important point. Of all the different creature types, Outsiders come closest to a true 1 HD = 1 character level correspondence. This suggests another way to check the Malebranche's CR.

The 16 HD Malebranche appears to approximate in power a 16th level fighter, minus some gear.

A fully equipped 16th level fighter should be about CR 16, right? Let's assume his gear accounts for about half his challenge rating -- probably a conservative estimate. If 2 CR 14 creatures = 1 16 CR creature, a 16th level fighter without all the normal gear might equal a 14 CR creature.

Even if you half our theoretical fighter's CR yet again, you only go down to CR 12 -- still +3 CR over and above what's in the MMII for the Malebranche.

The more I look at this question, the worse CR 9 looks for this monster.

 

[The Serge]

And you bring up an important point. Of all the different creature types, Outsiders come closest to a true 1 HD = 1 character level correspondence. This suggests another way to check the Malebranche's CR.

This may well be the case with the MMII Outsiders. This wouldn't be the case with the MMI.

The Pit Fiend is a CR 16, but has 13 HD. Sure, it has a boat-load of spells, regeneration, a nasty fear effect, some really disabling abilities, a save or die attack, and wish, but it doesn't really match your insight.

Still, I do agree with your analysis of the Malebranche.

 

[Garnfellow]

This may well be the case with the MMII Outsiders. This wouldn't be the case with the MMI.

The Pit Fiend is a CR 16, but has 13 HD. Sure, it has a boat-load of spells, regeneration, a nasty fear effect, some really disabling abilities, a save or die attack, and wish, but it doesn't really match your insight.

Well, if I could refine my original thought, I'd say that an outsider's HD gives us an excellent starting place for estimating the lower limit of the monster's CR. Really, the sky is the upper limit, given enough special abilities. So while an outsider's CR can always be higher than its HD, the CR probably should never be much lower than 2-4 below its HD.

In fact, after checking the demons and devils in the MMI, MMII, and MotP, this rule of thumb holds true in every case but the Malebranche. More circumstantial evidence against the CR of 9?