Man vs. Machine (d20)

[Vigilance]

That would probably work great damage-mechanic wise.

Movement, I might find unsatisfying. Maneuvering in melee/squad combat seems different than in vehicle combat.

Unless you are going for more of a man-analog machine (mecha, etc.), in which case it sounds spot-on.

Out of curiosity, what about movement would you find unsatisfying?

 

[ValhallaGH]

Im confused as to which part you're referring to.

Are you saying M&M does vehicles like Battletech? Or it does them like normal characters?

Since he was quoting me, and I was talking about how M&M treats vehicles like characters for combat, I would assume he was talking about how M&M does vehicles like characters.

I haven't run into any problems with it, as long as I don't get ridiculous with a vehicle's maneuverability. Flying men and people that shoot fire with their mind are perfectly acceptable, but have a hummvee turn on a dime and suddenly the sense of immersion goes out the window. Weird but true.

 

[The Black Kestrel]

While I don't recommend going all the way in treating machines like characters (I definitely do not like the d20 Future mecha RAW), try incorporating the damage track rules from SWSE. I find those help simulate cumulative damage fantastically. Regarding saving throws vehicles use their driver/pilot's Reflex save modified for the size of the vehicle. Again I'll reference SWSE, it gives all vehicles a strength stat which is then used to calculate a Fort save.

 

[mikelaff]

Since he was quoting me, and I was talking about how M&M treats vehicles like characters for combat, I would assume he was talking about how M&M does vehicles like characters.

I haven't run into any problems with it, as long as I don't get ridiculous with a vehicle's maneuverability. Flying men and people that shoot fire with their mind are perfectly acceptable, but have a hummvee turn on a dime and suddenly the sense of immersion goes out the window. Weird but true.

Sorry - I should have been more clear. That's what I get for posting after 3 rum+cokes. Yes - I was referring to ValhallaGH's previous remarks about how vehicles are handled similar to characters in MM. It works pretty well IMHO and I'm fan of handling vehicles that way.

My MM game has a lot of HYDRA , SPECTRE and THRUSH type super-villain organizations. So my PCs have spent more than a few combats fighting marauding heli-carriers, hover-tanks or attack subs.

 

[Psion]

Out of curiosity, what about movement would you find unsatisfying?

Mainly, the way d20 combat is normally run, stops are frequent. In melee, you stop when you slug it out with a target. In squad combat, you approach, find cover, and then shoot it out.

It seems like more naturally in vehicle combat, the vehicles never stop moving and take advantage of their mobility.

 

[mikelaff]

Just wondering - -are you going to have a vehicle rules section for Supers20 - or will that be for a later release?

Also - side thought - as someone pointed out, in MM as you (or your vehicle) take damage, you become less effective (penalities against rolls and such). This seems (to me anyway) as a particularly good idea for vehicles. Modern20/Supers20 is using HP instead of a damage track - but it might be nice if there were some rules crunch that handled that.

maybe after you lose 10 percent of your vehicle's HP, you get a -2 on to-hit rolls etc - - with a bigger penalty for 20 percent, 30 % etc. Just a thought

I almost titled this thread "Super-man vs. War-machine" but was afraid everyone would think it was some sort of Marvel vs. DC thing.

Anyway, I've been giving a lot of thought to the classic "superhero fights a tank" thing.

I never found these battles very satisfying, where a character fights a vehicle, or even when two vehicles fight one another.

In looking at the starship combat rules in d20 Future however, an idea occurred to me to treat the vehicles as monsters (essentially characters) rather than vehicles.

What does everyone this of this idea?

I think it might actually be more satisfying, with a more traditional "move, attack, mark off hit points" paradigm.

 

[Vigilance]

Well, my idea was to cleave as close to traditional OGL combat mechanics as possible, meaning no penalties as you lost HP. I just find traditional d20 combat to be very satisfying and to play very smoothly and that's one thing I'm trying to capture.

As for where this will appear, I'm working on a supplement for Supers20, set in WWII, that will have a "man vs. machine" section in it.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Also - side thought - as someone pointed out, in MM as you (or your vehicle) take damage, you become less effective (penalities against rolls and such).

Not really. The only penalties from damage are a) decreased ability to resist damage, b) lost actions due to especially hard hits. True20 adds in another condition that penalizes other rolls but that extra level of complexity seems to confuse a lot of people. Also, the decreasing effectiveness makes the fights a great deal less satisfying.

 

[Vigilance]

Well, Modern20 has injuries as an optional rule, so we could include "vehicle damage" or whatever it's called as an optional rule for man vs. machine combat.

I don't like to make such things integral however. They can be options for people who like them.

 

[mikelaff]

Not really. The only penalties from damage are a) decreased ability to resist damage, b) lost actions due to especially hard hits. True20 adds in another condition that penalizes other rolls but that extra level of complexity seems to confuse a lot of people. Also, the decreasing effectiveness makes the fights a great deal less satisfying.

You are correct. My mistake. I've house-ruled in the True20 thing and forgot it wasn't RAW for MM.