Mapping questions

[SRD]

If there are no rules for my question, please tell me the most convenient way in your opinion.
1) Should I (being the DM) keep my own "DM map"? Should it be different from the players' map (ie. mine having all secret passages marked whereas theirs' not)?
2) Should all the miniatures for each encounter be visible on the map from the start or should I reveal the monsters only when the party gets to that encounter?
3) Should the players know what treasure they're gonna get if they enter a specific encounter- or keep it in the dark?
4) What can I say when someone asks: "Is there a secret in this room?".

 

[Infiniti2000]

1. Yes, you should. I always redraw the map (on Tact Tiles) for the players. Never do I let them see my map because I have a lot more on my pages than just the current encounter area.

2. This is kind of up to you. Ideally, the players would only get to see what one or more of the party is aware of. If the players are good at keeping PC knowledge, however, then you can just put all the bad guys out there. This is convenient for you as DM so you don't have to keep bad guy positions in your head.

3. In the dark!

4. "There are secrets in every room, but you need to find them."

 

[Nytmare]

I think that these answers are probably the way that most people run things:

1) Two different maps, one with secret DM only info, and one with player info.

2) Keep them hidden until a character would realistically know that they're there. If they're in the dark, or behind a wall, and the characters don't see them, the players shouldn't see them either.

3) Just like hidden creatures, the players don't see what the treasure is until the characters see what the treasure is. If someone has a bunch of gold in a chest, the characters might see the chest, but they don't know what's in it till they can open it up. On the other hand, if they're fighting someone who has a sword that bursts into flame, then they're going to notice.

4) It depends on what the secret is, how both of you decide that they're going to look for it, and how long they have to search. If you, yourself are standing in a room and you think that someone's hidden something in it, you're going to go through drawers, and pull books off of shelves and look underneath things to try to find it. Depending on how long they have to look for it, you would either have them roll a perception check to look (if they're in a hurry or in the middle of a fight), use their "passive perception" and add 10 to their base skill (if they are just wandering past and might notice it), or let them "take 20" by adding 20 to their base skill (if they're spending a significant amount of time in the room and searching every possible place they can think of.)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think the root of the question is really about how game play is typically organized.

Normally the DM is the only one with a large area map of say a dungeon level. This map is his reference document. It will usually be keyed with numbers referencing each area to be described so he can go look at a write up for that area, with significant features possibly noted on the map. In the old days at least this map was usually on quarter inch ruled 8.5" x 11" graph paper.

All the players have is the battlemat, a 1"x1" ruled erasable mat or something similar where the DM can use erasable markers to draw in whatever is around the PCs at the moment. When they move out of one area to another just erase it and draw the new area. Then you can place whatever miniatures etc you want or draw stuff in to represent anything else, then describe it as the characters see it, and maybe explain the mechanics of anything the players haven't run into before or isn't clear.

If the players want to make a map of the whole area to keep then that's up to them. They can copy from the battlemat etc and usually one PC is put in charge of map making (traditionally the wizard or rogue).

Now, not all areas need to be drawn out constantly on the battlemat. If the PCs are just going through some hallways or whatever where there's no fighting going on then just describe it and give rough dimensions if a PC maps. You only really need to draw it out and move figures around when you get to some action. Even a room or building or whatever where the PCs may talk to someone or do other non-combat stuff USUALLY doesn't justify drawing it on the mat. Its just tedious and doesn't add much. In those cases let the players be your guide. If they have a strong desire to know the layout of the Inn, then draw it out for them.

 

[Amaroq]

I'd suggest you read the rules on the Perception skill, from the PHB.

1) Definitely - the exact map with all secret doors, etc, is yours; the players should only know what they've discovered. Old-school D&D actually forced the players to map, with one player sitting there with graph paper.

2) For most encounters, yes, the minis for the opponents and party should all be visible on the map from the start. However, you can make encounters more interesting by having creatures join in the 2nd round or later .. one classic example is the party coming to a T intersection, with some bad guys down the right-hand T ... (but more bad guys just out of sight down the left-hand T). The melee defenders rush to the right, and then the hidden bad guys come around the corner from the left.

For this case, I'll typically have the players make a Perception check to see if they notice the reinforcements as the reinforcements arrive at the edge of the battle. So, say the script calls for reinforcements to enter in Round 2. A failed Perception results in the reinforcements getting placed on the map during Round 2, on their initiative, and acting immediately. A successful Perception results in the reinforcements getting placed on the map on their initiative during Round 1.

3) Heck. No.

4) What can I say when someone asks: "Is there a secret in this room?".

A decent answer is:

"I don't know. Make a Perception check."

"I don't know. Do you want to spend ten minutes searching the room?"

A great answer would look like this:

"Just glancing around the room, you don't see anything - there's that desk on the north wall, and a chest in the corner, and there's a bookshelf along the south wall."

The scene is re-set; ask each player what they want to do, then resolve what they do .. so maybe the rogue goes over to see if there's a trap on the chest, the wizard might look at the bookshelf to see if there are any good ritual books, the ranger searches the desk, while the fighter listens for approaching monsters.

The rogue has a Perception check to see if he notices the poison needle trap on the chest, which should have a DC to discover.

The wizard has a Perception check to see if he notices the false book which opens the secret door behind the bookshelf.

The ranger has a Perception check to see if he finds the ring hidden in the false compartment of one of the desk drawers.

The monsters sneaking up on the party make a Stealth check against the Passive Perception of the three active characters; since the fighter told me he was actively listening for approaching monsters, I let him make a Perception roll against the monsters' Stealth.

 

[SRD]

First off, thanks for the answers.

The ranger has a Perception check to see if he finds the ring hidden in the false compartment of one of the desk drawers.

Perception may be good in many cases, but what if that ring is The Reward for the whole adventure, the principal quest item (adventure's goal being to retrieve it) or something required to proceed in the adventure? In any of these 3 situations what is a DM to do if no-one finds the ring?

And another thing that seems to be in every game except DnD: anti-cheating measures. It's fine to say: "If you play DnD, you have to trust your DM", but DM's are human too. What if someone, confronted with major bad luck, says to me, the DM: "I don't believe that Red Dragon dropped nothing, you just hate me"? I can't very well show him my "DM map" - he'll see where all the treasures are, too.
What would _you_ do?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Simply put, don't put such items in a place where they have to be found through careful and exhaustive searching! Put the ring on the bad guy or in an obvious glass case atop a pedestal in the BBEG's library.

Another thing, don't put roadblocks such as "requires ring to proceed in the adventure" into your adventure design. Period. Maybe the going will be more difficult (someone else, probably another enemy of the PCs, gets a hold of the ring), but NEVER impossible.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If the only thing between the players finding such an important "plot item" and not finding it is a die roll, the adventure design needs to be reworked. Even then, it should never, ever, EVER totally stop the adventure cold.

 

[Turtlejay]

Maybe this goes without saying, but skill challenges can create this problem to. If they fail a skill challenge, they should not fail at D&D.

Jay

 

[GeekKen]

First off, thanks for the answers....
Perception may be good in many cases, but what if that ring is The Reward for the whole adventure, the principal quest item (adventure's goal being to retrieve it) or something required to proceed in the adventure? In any of these 3 situations what is a DM to do if no-one finds the ring?

And another thing that seems to be in every game except DnD: anti-cheating measures....

Infiniti2000 give some excellent advice. If you have an adventure come to an obstacle where, if the players fail, the story cannot continue, then you have a poor adventure.

It's a challenge, but it is best to think about all the possible outcomes for every challenge or encounter. What happens if the group gets overwhelmed and suffers a near TPK? Do you have them all fight to the death? Or do you allow the players to surrender and lead off to some other solution? Sometimes the best planning is to think about what will happen if the players fail.

Same with skill challenges and the critical perception check you mentioned. If the players don't notice this critical plot element, what effect does it have on the adventure? If it stops everything cold, you've got to rethink how you are laying out the story elements.

I make all the 'secret' stuff optional rewards, routes, or potential future advantages for the players. So they missed the secret door. They missed a bonus treasure parcel. They missed noticing a script of runes on a wall. Then they missed an opportunity that describes another route by-passing an encounter or two.

This way, you are not punishing the players for missing some details. Also, the story does not plug up into a bottleneck.

One last point, look over your player's skills and abilities. Take note of them when you are drafting your adventure. Make sure your ability and skill checks fall within a range that some of the players can succeed at. If you have a DC 28 perception check for a bunch of level 1 players, with no one being trained in perception, there is no point even having the check in the first place. Use meaningful checks that some of your players can succeed at, or don't bother having it in your game.