market research for horror gamers

[Prest0]

First, I need to make something very clear. This is not a rant, and it’s not meant to sound like whining. I’m writing this in the spirit of market research, and I hope that is the way everyone reads it.

Every now and then someone poses a question on these forums about d20 horror. Maybe it is a post asking for a list of resources, or maybe it just laments the general lack of support material out there for horror adventures. Inevitably someone else responds with a list of supplements, adventures, etc. Most of the time nobody mentions our company in those lists, so the purpose of this post is to ask your help in identifying why. After all, if we don’t know the root of the problem, how can we go about fixing it?

First of all, if you buy horror adventures, have you heard of 12 to Midnight? If you haven’t even heard of us, then we know where to focus our efforts.

If you’ve heard of us, what do you know about us? Have you looked into any of our adventures? Visited our website? If so, was there something that turned you off? Is the pricing a factor? Is the PDF format a deal-stopper?

Or do we simply fly under the radar? Four titles in a year and a half is an abysmal production record, so it’s understandable if you know who we are but simply forget about us in the drought periods between releases.

In more general terms (and something useful to the forum community at large), what things do you look for when you’re shopping for horror RPG material? Do you only buy from publishers you’ve already done business with? Do you only buy print products? Do you only buy adventures, or only GM aids? Do you only buy from licensed lines Cthulhu, Hellboy, or Buffy? What does it take before you go out on a limb and spend money on an unknown?

Again, please don’t read this post as whining or ranting. We want to make a genuine effort to improve our visibility, and understanding our deficiencies is the first step. Please help us, and in return you’ll ensure the survival of another source for modern horror material. As long as we are around, we will continue to publish high-quality products and make available the free campaign setting, maps, mp3s, and adventure outlines on our website.

Thanks,

-Preston

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I'll respond, as I'm a 12toMidnight customer.

I purchased Last Rites, and found it to be a solid product. My issues:

Visibility -- I'll honestly say that more of my Modern Gaming Dollar goes to RPGObjects and RoninArts because I see representatives of those companies here on these boards from time to time, they host chats from time to time, and it just generally maintains visibility for me. While "Press Releases" are supposed to go in the publishers forum (where I never go) when Vig mentions a new product from RPGO in the body of a thread, I'm usually piqued to go look. Adamant Entertainment recently got a few of my dollars because I see GMSkarka around and he's been talking up his products.

Not that you have the time/inclination to hang around this particular stretch of netspace, but stopping in to sluice through the threads and see if there's anything you'd like to respond to actually goes a long way, for me, to making sure 12toMidnight is in my mind when I think: "Man, I need a horror module, and quick."

Even though I've bought from you before, I've actually had that thought and forgot that 12toMidnight might have another product or two for me.

And, as you thought, the great distance between publications exacerbates that situation. If 12toMidnight hasn't published anything I've thought about in months, then I stop thinkin 12toMidnight ... and miss things when you do publish them. Now, I'm not saying I'd like more product at lower quality standards. I LIKE the detail and care that goes into 12toMidnight work. But it needs to be backed up with SOMETHING that keeps you in-mind.

I think teaming up with RPGO and RA to do ModernDispatch is a great idea, for just that reason. You don't have to contribute to every issue, but you're still on there and that keeps you in mind when I think Modern d20.

Content -- I mean, I bought and ran Last Rites, and it worked well for a Dark*Matter game, but why haven't I jumped on anything else?

Perhaps part of it is the fact that you currently have 4 products, 2 of which are 1-shot convention demos. So I haven't purchased either of those as I haven't needed a one-shot. I might soon, though, to run one for our local game club. But, for my day-to-day steady DM needs your product line looks like this: 2 One-shots (don't need), 1 "mini-campaign" (don't want to invest myself tonight), and 1 adventure (which I bought). Plus I run occult investigation and Dark*Matter style games where the PCs generally know what they're getting into (if not all the details, at least that something odd will be going on ... or not going on). Of all your products, only the one I bought seems useful to that kind of game.

Thinking about it ... I think part of the problem there is that all of your products seem unrelated to one another. Two one-shots, an occult investigation, and a treasure hunt gone awry. Repeat customers often want "more of the same" I'd assume, and so far you don't have any "more of the same" beyond two one-shot military horrors that can't be used together.

I'd LOVE more adventures along the lines of Last Rites. I generally don't go in for the Digital Voice Phenomena and Orbs style investigation, but having it in there means I can just leave it out and somebody else can include it. But I'll honestly say I'd snap up another reasonably priced, well produced occult investigation adventure. Or two. Or three. Hell, I ran one such adventure a week for over a year, and I wrote all but one (Last Rites) myself. Had there been more of those available I'd have probably bought more of them to run. I've thought about writing them, since I write them pretty often for my own use, and publishing them myself, since nobody else is doing it regularly, but the whole layout and business sides are too much work to make it worth the trouble. If I did it, I'd want to make it look good, and I can't, so I haven't.

As to what I look for in content ... somewhere in the middle of what you've got now. The military stuff is, well, military. The investigation was scary, occult, but utterly tame. I dunno about everybody else's game, but mine run somewhere in the middle. There's the investigation, the mystery, the looking into things, but there's also ALWAYS some kind of combat. That may seem weird or against-genre, but that's why I run Dark*Matter ... it's hard to get a group together who wants to do nothing but roll skill rolls and listen to DVP recordings. Invariably somebody wants to play the gunbunny and invariably people look for a good butt kicking. I think it's a part of the horror-gaming genre.

So, in summary. I'd like to see and hear about 12toMidnight, and I'd like MORE. More adventures, especially.

--fje

 

[trancejeremy]

Well, I try to. I even mention you guys when it comes to Savage Worlds (a game system I hate) when it comes up on related mailing lists and such.

But there's a lot of stuff out there. Especially in the PDF arena.

 

[Nisarg]

Dear sir/madam,

I am writing to express my strong approval of your plan to make a new RPG about modern horror in a market research company.

I have worked in a market research company, and if you need my help to describe the extradimensional beings that stalk the halls of a typical market research company, the mind control devices affixed to the headsets, and what all those people are REALLY doing in a modern office building so late after regular business hours, as well as why they have a habit of hiring the otherwise unhireable, people who will not be missed, I would be glad to talk to you about all of these details.

May the great olds ones save us all,

Nisarg

 

[Prest0]

Heap, thanks so VERY much for that thorough response. That was just the kind of feedback I was looking for. I know our release schedule has been a problem. Part of the slowdown is due to the way we publish our titles in two systems. So even though we've only released four titles, we've released eight products. Still, who cares, right? It doesn't change the paucity of titles in either system. This year is shaping up a be a much bigger year for us. We finally have a couple of freelancers working on projects as well as the in-house development. Hopefully all those projects will help us do a better job of keeping us in the forefront.

Your point about making a bigger presence here is well taken. While we try to throw in our $0.02 here from time to time, apparently it hasn't been enough. I think to date, we've been a little overly cautious out of fear that as a publisher we walk a line between contributing to the discussions and pimpin' our wares. We'll try to do a better job of joining in without getting (too) obnoxious.

Your point about our lineup is also well taken, in more ways than one. It sounds like I need to go back and rewrite the description for Bloodlines. It is very much an "occult investigation" game and has Dark*Matter/Cthulhu written all over it. This year we'll be further adding to our lineup of occult investigation-style adventures, so hopefully our catalog will start to show some cohesion.

Trance, thanks for keeping us in mind. That's all we can ask.

Nisarg, thanks for your offer of advice. Our agents-- ahem-- editors will be in contact with you. In fact, they are watching you already.

 

[Wraith Form]

I, admittedly, am not a 12-to-Midnight customer--more on that later--but everything that Heap mentions is certainly true for me. Heap's post is very thorough and covers the exact things I wish I could say I thought of. Especially the idea that, when I think of horror gaming, your company isn't the first that comes to mind. I have heard of you guys, don't get me wrong--it's just that your company's name doesn't pop up very often.

I prefer a print product. Some of we "older gents" like to actually hold dead trees in our hands. If you only offer PDFs, I'm automatically excluded because I don't own a credit card to pay for them, and I have to read them on screen instead of in bed at night before I fall asleep. (Thus, I'm not a 12-t-M customer...yet.)

Good reviews here on EN World usually prompt me to (in the words of Hannibal) "covet what we see every day" and purchase. If you can get one of us to write a good review, that'll bring more attention to your product. If you can get a lot of us to write good reviews, even better!

The amount that you have for sale is a bit slim right now. I understand that's changing: good! I'd like to see more of what you have to offer. Heck, I might even break down and get the credit card just to get the PFDs (just to print them, just to read them in bed....)

Having said that, I'll drift over to your web site right now to see what I can find...thank you for reminding me that you're out there!

Oh, and P.S. - personally, I don't mind a bit of low-key pimpin' so long as it doesn't get overbearing.

 

[Committed Hero]

I don't have a problem with your stuff, and enjoyed Last Rites.

It does seem that your site doesn't get updated terribly often, though. It's too bad, since I though the Pine Box setting would be a good one for a continuing metaplot.

 

[Yuan-Ti]

I only play in such games... and have only recently played in one such game. The GM used the Pine Box setting, but I am not sure if he used any of the modules. But I do know who you are, thanks to that campaign.

 

[jaerdaph]

Hi Preston,

First off, we d20 Modern horror fans *should* be mentioning 12 to Midnight more - I bought Last Rites and Bloodlines and you guys to great stuff! I'm thrilled you are part of RPGObjects' Modern Dispatch subscription now too. You have a great Web site too - it feels more like an extension of your products than a sales catalog.

Actually, I have seen 12 to Midnight's products mentioned several times in message board threads by fans. Most seemed to mention that they were running Last Rites or Bloodlines as part of a d20 Modern Dark*Matter campaign. Not just d20 Modern, mind you - d20 Modern Dark*Matter. Is that interesting/important? Does it mean anything? I don't know, but it certainly is good impressive company to be mentioned in.

I don't think the problem is the number of titles you have produced but the type of titles that you have released to date - adventures. I think people tend to mention "sourcebook" type material rather than adventures in those threads where you aren't mentioned, usually in response to a specific question.

Anyhow, hope this helps.

 

[Prest0]

Wraith, thanks for the feedback. It's equally good to hear from folks who haven't bought our stuff, and why. In the past our various titles have been available in print as PODs, but we haven't done a very good job of advertising that fact. Right now two of the four are sold out and we're switching all of our printing over to Lulu.com because their quality is outstanding. Since they accept Paypal as well as credit cards, maybe that will help your situation. Regarding reviews, those are pretty hard to come by. We DO have reviews for each of our products here at EN World, and they are all positive, but they're not the kind of thing you stumble across. You've got to pretty much already be looking for us by that point. Still, you're right. Reviews never hurt.

Committed Hero, I'm embarrassed to say you're right about the site. Up until January the front page wasn't getting updated very often, and that goes back to our long development times between products. Hopefully this year as we keep adding new products we'll see an upturn in updates on our site, as well. As of January, we have been posting "headlines" from Pinebox on the site's front page. We've been updating those once a week. If you keep up with the headlines, you'll definitely see some metaplots developing. While the headlines don't lead to actual articles, the titles alone should be enough to give you some cool ideas for your campaign. Also, I just posted a free MP3 of a band referenced in the latest Modern Dispatch, so now you have a new freebie to check out as well.

Yuan-Ti, I'm glad to hear you got to experience our Pinebox setting. Even if your GM just used the material we make available for free (of which there is a lot), it is still rewarding to hear from folks who played something we put so much work into creating.

Jaerdaph, thanks for the compliments. We've had several people tell us they've used our stuff in their Dark*Matter campaigns, which is very gratifying. I'm as sorry as anyone that that setting isn't being officially supported anymore. At least companies like ours can keep writing for the genre if not for the specific trademarked/copyrighted setting. Your point about sourcebooks versus adventures is worth further considering. I'm not sure whether or not I agree with you (or maybe we're not reading the same threads), but we'll be able to test that theory soon enough. Our next product, in layout right now, is a sourcebook called Green's Guide to Ghosts. We'll be posting a preview of the cover early next week.

Thanks to everyone who has responded thus far. I really do appreciate the responses from each of you. It has helped give me a much clearer picture of what we need to be doing in the future. One thing I haven't heard anyone mention is price. Those of you who haven't tried us-- has cost been a factor at all?