Marks and other conditions being known

[Sal]

One of my players had a question about being marked by a fighter. He was wondering why it would be known that a creature is marked. Also does it apply (the being known part) to other conditions? Where can I find this stated in the rules?

Thanx from Sal

 

[Lizard]

Page 57, second column, last paragraph.

Any creature affected by a power know that it is affected and knows who did it. Creatures are always aware of all conditions affecting them and the source of the condition.

(Since the whole point of marking a creature is to make him attack you, it would be pretty useless if the creature didn't know how marked it! It's NOT supposed to be "I give the creature a -2 to attack anyone else and then hope he doesn't attack me!". The "Cowardice" power source isn't supposed to come out until PHB3.)

 

[Tony Vargas]

4e is aparently meant to be played very much 'above board.' The players know exactly what the monsters do to them, the DM doesn't have to pretend he doesn't know what the players are doing to his monsters, and everyone is apraised of the consequences of thier actions before they take them. Not realistic, but fair.

The in-character F/X of a fighter's 'mark' seems to be that the fighter attacks with such ferocity and persistence that the enemy cannot turn his attention away from him without a substantial risk. The 'marked' target would certainly be aware that there's a scale-armored maniac all up in his face, trying to kill him.

 

[Chen_93]

Well creatures know conditions on them but they should not know what class abilities you have.

E.g., I mark a Kobold as a fighter. It shifts and I smack it (it should not know about combat challenge). Next round my ranger/fighter multiclass buddy decides to mark this Kobold. It should "assume" that this guy is able to smack him if he shifts. The DM should not "know" that the multi-class ranger does not have combat challenge and cannot in fact take that attack if it shifts.

 

[Lizard]

Well creatures know conditions on them but they should not know what class abilities you have.

E.g., I mark a Kobold as a fighter. It shifts and I smack it (it should not know about combat challenge). Next round my ranger/fighter multiclass buddy decides to mark this Kobold. It should "assume" that this guy is able to smack him if he shifts. The DM should not "know" that the multi-class ranger does not have combat challenge and cannot in fact take that attack if it shifts.

Well, the way the rules are written, the creature knows ALL EFFECTS of any power used on him -- including that if he's marked by you and he shifts, you can whack him. The point is to allow creatures to make intelligent tactical decisions, and not burden the DM with trying to second-guess what the creature knows. Maybe the kobold has faced fighters before and can see by your stance and position that you're going to be able to swing at him no matter how cautiously he moves.

 

[Chen_93]

Well, the way the rules are written, the creature knows ALL EFFECTS of any power used on him -- including that if he's marked by you and he shifts, you can whack him. The point is to allow creatures to make intelligent tactical decisions, and not burden the DM with trying to second-guess what the creature knows. Maybe the kobold has faced fighters before and can see by your stance and position that you're going to be able to swing at him no matter how cautiously he moves.

Does it know a fighter's OAs stop movement in that case? If so, how does it determine you're a fighter and not ranger or rogue, or even a paladin?

The point was I wasn't sure I'd include the combat challenge ability as part of the power used to mark something. What if I mark it with some other fighter power? I can still use combat challenge attacks it if its marked by one of those specific marking powers fighters get.

 

[Lizard]

Does it know a fighter's OAs stop movement in that case? If so, how does it determine you're a fighter and not ranger or rogue, or even a paladin?

The point was I wasn't sure I'd include the combat challenge ability as part of the power used to mark something. What if I mark it with some other fighter power? I can still use combat challenge attacks it if its marked by one of those specific marking powers fighters get.

Like I (and others) have said: You can work out if the kobold may or may not know all the possibilities, or just have a blanket rule that he does, and that's that.

He does know he's marked; he knows whatever power was used to mark him and what it can do. He DOESN'T know the fighter's inventory of powers, so if the fighter has something which he can only do to a marked target, the kobold probably wouldn't know that until it was used on him. Once a power is used, though, he knows all effects *of that power*.

So, if Power 1 is "Mark the target" and Power 2 is "+5 to hit a marked target", the kobold knows he's marked, but doesn't know the fighter might get a +5 to hit him next turn (if the fighter chooses to use that power). OTOH, if a power is "Target is marked; the fighter gains +5 to hit that target", the kobold knows both effects, since they're part of the same power.

 

[Stormtower]

Does it know a fighter's OAs stop movement in that case? If so, how does it determine you're a fighter and not ranger or rogue, or even a paladin?

The point was I wasn't sure I'd include the combat challenge ability as part of the power used to mark something. What if I mark it with some other fighter power? I can still use combat challenge attacks it if its marked by one of those specific marking powers fighters get.

Be careful with your rules interpretation here. The attack provided by the fighter's Mark/Combat Challenge when an enemy shifts/attacks someone else is an immediate reaction, not an OA. Thus, it is limited to only once per round and does NOT stop movement, nor does the fighter receive his Wisdom modifier as a bonus to the attack.

 

[Chen_93]

Be careful with your rules interpretation here. The attack provided by the fighter's Mark/Combat Challenge when an enemy shifts/attacks someone else is an immediate reaction, not an OA. Thus, it is limited to only once per round and does NOT stop movement, nor does the fighter receive his Wisdom modifier as a bonus to the attack.

I am aware of this. The OA question was another question in trying to determine what a monster knew.

 

[yu gnomi]

I have uploaded a text file regarding this issue. It is a series of emails between Hypersmurf and a customer service rep, that I copied and pasted into a text file (I would link to the thread I copied it from, but I can't remember it's title).

The cust serv gives a series of responses which contradict each other, and then finishes by saying that it was always the intent of the designers that DMs determine how much monsters know. Interpret that how you will.

 

[yu gnomi]

I thought I attached it to last post: This is how it is in my text file, essentially same as was in thread.

Originally Posted by Hypersmurf

PHB p57 states:
"Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you've done to it and what conditions you've imposed. For example, when a paladin uses divine challenge against an enemy, the enemy knows that it has been marked and that it will therefore take a penalty to attack rolls and some damage if it attacks anyone aside from the paladin."

This suggests that effects of the form "And if you do X, Y will happen!" are known to the target.

Is this true in the case of:
1. Hellish Rebuke (Warlock Attack 1): the target knows that if the warlock takes damage, the target will also take damage?
2. Riposte Strike (Rogue Attack 1): the target knows that if he attacks the rogue, the rogue will get an immediate interrupt attack?
3. Dance of Death (Rogue Attack 27): the target knows that if he makes a melee attack against the rogue, it will automatically be redirected (possibly against himself), with no way to prevent it?

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Originally Posted by Marc from CS
Thank you for contacting us. Yes, all enemies would know all the conditions imposed on them and all of the effects of the power in all three of the examples you provided. Everything is designed to be completely transparent, but we encourage DMs to run the game the way they like. Please let me know if you need anymore help!

Marc
Customer Service Representative
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Originally Posted by Hypersmurf
The niggle that we have concerns Dance of Death in particular.

The power as described looks like a "Surprise! You shouldn't have done that!" power... in the next round, the enemy attacks you, but you trick him into hitting someone else.

But if he knows that this is what will happen if he attacks you, it changes it from a "You shouldn't have done that!" power into a "You'd better not do that!" power. Since there is no way to circumvent the redirection, a creature affected by Dance of Death, who knows its effect, simply won't make a melee attack, so the consequences will never occur.

Which is fine... but then, if you're an Artful Dodger, you grant a bonus to the attack roll that we've just determined will never occur. It seems a bit pointless having a bonus to something that will never happen, which is why we wondered if perhaps this is not a situation the "Enemy knows all effects" rule is intended to cover.

The power as written seems to include an assumption the enemy *doesn't* know his attack will be redirected.

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Originally Posted by Marc from CS
I'm glad you wrote back. I have discussed this with a few of my colleagues. Here is what we agreed upon. The statement is ""Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you've done to it and what conditions you've imposed." So the creature knows exactly what you've done to it. What did you do? You attacked it, or cast a spell upon it. This is the extent of what the creature knows about the power. It does not specify that it know's the complete intricacies of how the power works. It will also know what conditions you've imposed. A list of all the conditions that can be imposed is on page 277.

With that said if a rogue uses the Dance of Death Power against an enemy, all it knows is that you have hit it with an attack. This attack does not impose any conditions so all the enemy knows is that it has been attacked. It does not know how exactly Dance of Death Works. The same applies to the other powers you asked about.

I apologize for the confusion the first time. I hope this helps clear things up. Please let me know if you need anymore help!
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Originally Posted by Marc from CS
But "Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn't include you as a target before the start of your next turn" is not a condition described on p277; however, it is given as an example of something the enemy knows when a paladin uses Divine Challenge on him.

Under your latest ruling, the enemy should know that a/ he has been targeted by a class feature, and b/ the 'marked' condition has been imposed on him. Since the potential radiant damage is not a condition, he shouldn't know that he will take damage if he attacks someone other than the paladin. But p57 states that he does... which suggests that "What you've done to it and what conditions you've imposed" conveys more information that "You've used a power" and "Conditions from p277".

Or is the Divine Challenge example in error, and in fact a creature targeted with Divine Challenge does not know he will take damage if he attacks someone other than the paladin?

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Originally Posted by Marc from CS
Hello again,

I went and discussed this with my team again and I spoke specifically with a colleague who keeps regular contact with the developers of D&D. From this discussion, I found that unfortunately, the last answer I gave you is not correct. The first answer I gave you is correct. Now I understand, how frustrating this must be for you now that I have given you two different answers, and again I sincerely apologize for the confusion that I have caused. I am 100% sure now of the answer that I am about to give you. The developers intended that the creature is completely aware of what the power does that is effecting him. However, instead of coming up with rules for each power that states what portions of the power are known and which portions of the power are unknown to a creature, they intended for the DM to use their discretion to fit their game.

So, as the rules are written, and as intended, if you attack a creature with the Dance of Death power, that creature knows exactly how that power works. Now the DM can choose how much knowledge the creature has about that power. If they feel the game would be more fun, or if it would fit their campaign better to have the creature not know all of the effects of a power they can certainly choose to play it that way.

Again I apologize for the confusion that I have caused.
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[Lizard]

I have uploaded a text file regarding this issue. It is a series of emails between Hypersmurf and a customer service rep, that I copied and pasted into a text file (I would link to the thread I copied it from, but I can't remember it's title).

The cust serv gives a series of responses which contradict each other, and then finishes by saying that it was always the intent of the designers that DMs determine how much monsters know. Interpret that how you will.

After we figure out the intent of the designers, perhaps we can get together with the Supreme Court and figure out the intent of the drafters of the Constitution. It can't be much harder.

 

[SuperGnome]

I play it as all opponents (PC's or Baddies) know an effect is on them, but maybe not the extent of that effect. It might be a bit different when playing more intelligent monsters, as they may very well be able to figure out a PC's class after maybe just a round of combat. Knowing that, they'd have a pretty good idea of what some effects may be.

In most cases, I think it's pretty safe to assume most effects are transparent if there is some narrative way to describe impending effects (bleeding wounds and the like). With the fighter's mark, I figure there' s a chance to know about the Opportunity Attack. If they take one because of the mark, they probably won't ignore the mark again.

 

[Stormtower]

Thank you for the copied exchange with CS; that they are throwing it back to the DM for final case-by-case calls is admirable. I worry for the expectations of uniform play in organized games, but at the same time, 4E's RAW emphasis on cooperative group fun would seem to remove any adversarial element for the DM's ruling.

IMG I'll be ruling fairly transparently, but I'll still make monsters take an occasional OA or activate the fighter's Combat Challenge attack at appropriate moments. For abilities like Dance of Death or Combat Challenge it'll probably be a once per encounter deal for the monster groups... all those who see how an ability or power is triggered are definitely aware of all its effects once they've seen it used. Beforehand, sometimes I'll keep the monsters unaware to provide heroic opportunities and little wins/attaboys for the PCs with said abilities.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Once a power is used, though, he knows all effects *of that power*.

Right, but the power a Fighter uses on a kobold is "Reaping Strike", for example, which is modified by Combat Challenge to mark the target. "I get to hit a marked target who shifts" is not an effect of the power he used on the kobold, so the kobold doesn't know it's something he can do. The kobold knows that a/ the power hit me, b/ the power damaged me, and c/ the power marked me.

The ability to smack a marked target who shifts is something Combat Challenge grants the Fighter, not something Combat Challenge does to Reaping Strike or to the kobold.

-Hyp.