Martial Study Feat

[sukael]

1) are you sure that Psy War and Warmind levels don't stack to determine manifester level? (he's just taken warmind 1, so if you're right, he'll take PsyWar 3 instead to get double expansion)

Treat it like having levels in two spellcasting classes... wizard 1/sorcerer 1 doesn't have a caster level of 2, and psion 1/wilder 1 doesn't have a manifester level of 2.

That character only has a manifester level of 2 in Psychic Warrior (or 3)... not nearly enough to burn all 7 PPs needed to do a two-size-category Expansion, since you can only spend up to (your manifester level) PPs on a power at a time.

The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level. A power that can be augmented for additional effect is also limited by your manifester level (you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level).

 

[Zurai]

with just 2 size increases (levels in the psionic monk PrC) that damage reaches 6d8. (if he was a Goliath it would be 9d8).

Incorrect. Goliaths are medium creatures. Powerful Build lets them wield larger weapons than their size would usually allow, but it does not change their natural weapons, like Unarmed Strike. They use the medium Unarmed Strike damage table, and if they were to grow two size categories they would use the huge US damage table, not the gargantuan one.

EDIT: Also, the difference in base weapon damage is almost irrelevant. You mentioned him being polymorphed into a Cave Troll, which would put his strength at a +9 bonus. The average of 6d8+9 = 33. The average damage of a Cave Troll with a medium-sized Greatsword (ie, a Fighter polymorphed into a Cave Troll) is 2d6+13 = 20. Assuming level 12 characters, the Fighter is going to have a +3 BAB advantage, which translates directly into +6 damage through Power Attack, bringing the difference to a measly 7 points of damage. Or, the fighter could just hit 15% more often for the price of that 6 damage.

 

[Arkhandus]

1) are you sure that Psy War and Warmind levels don't stack to determine manifester level? (he's just taken warmind 1, so if you're right, he'll take PsyWar 3 instead to get double expansion)

Yes. War Minds get separate manifestation ability, unlike some of the other psionic prestige classes.

2) Multiple effects that increase size don't stack, but polymorph changes him into a entirely new form. Then he gets a size increase effect. I don't see any reason why this would not increase his size.

There is no 'size-increasing effect' descriptor or subtype or anything. Any special effect that increases the character's size, directly or not, is a size-increasing effect.

3) "You need to use a melee weapon attack first" are you sure? So it can't be added to a flurry of blows?

The feat specifically says that you must first attack with a melee weapon, and the wording seems to imply that you really do have to use a weapon, not an unarmed strike or natural weapon, before using the Snap Kick. So a Monk, frex, would probably have to attack with kamas/nunchakus/etc. with their flurry of blows, instead of unarmed strikes, before using the Snap Kick. I could be wrong on the interpretation of this one, but I think I have the right of it.

I agree with what you are saying about dispell etc. (I've seen it hapen to him), but until that happens, he still deals a TON of dammage.

Again, most likely a problem with the polymorphing (and the fact that 3.5 Enlarge/Expansion is at least a little broken, if not very broken).

With a monks belt and the feat a monk can do 2d10 at 12th level. with just 2 size increases (levels in the psionic monk PrC) that damage reaches 6d8. (if he was a Goliath it would be 9d8).

Goliaths and Half-Giants don't get increased unarmed damage or natural weapon damage. Powerful Build only allows them to wield weapons as though one size larger, it does not affect their damage otherwise.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Likely, he's going for the Sweeping Strike ability of the Warmind to double his already absurd damage output. Absurd meaning totally illegal, in this case.
Even with a legal build, with any Wisdom score under 26 he can only do that trick once per day. Or 18, if you count Practised Manifester as real levels for power point calculations.
That's once per day, for 7 rounds, costing a standard action at the beginning of combat.

He casts Expansion, NPC casts targeted dispel, and balance is restored. Then player demands that the party rest so he can try it again.

Iron Heroes is looking more fun every day.

 

[Cephid]

Ok well thanks.
I'm satisfied.
Are you sure that "Any special effect that increases the character's size, directly or not, is a size-increasing effect."?

I'll have to pass on the news to him and help him sort his character out.
Thanks for your help.

 

[Jhaelen]

I cannot help but notice that 99% of the cheese I see involves using polymorph (or one of its cousins). Has noone else taken the logical step and simply removed it from the game? I thought that was the whole point of the last official errata we got!

I know, that I removed it right away - luckily before polymorphing ever became a topic in my game. My druid player also happily switched to the PHB2 variant of wildshape.


To get back to the OP's question: I think the feat is fine for what it does. But I think it's often more efficient to simply take a level in one of the initiator classes than to invest heavily in martial study/stance.

 

[Nail]

I cannot help but notice that 99% of the cheese I see involves using polymorph (or one of its cousins). Has noone else taken the logical step and simply removed it from the game? I thought that was the whole point of the last official errata we got!

Exactly.

Enlarge/Expansion is also a problem.

Back on topic: Why doesn't the OP just have his NPC take a level in Warblade? This is *much* more effective than taking the feat Martial Study.

 

[brehobit]

1) This means that each maneuver is on par with an actual feat.
2) This means that the Martial Study feat is very underpowered.

#1. The Bo9S classes are fairly overpowered IMO.

That said, most of the "good" strikes have prereqs, and even worse, the power of those strikes don't scale. So while there are a few strike options that _are_ very powerful, there are a few that make sense only if your DM doesn't allow the Bo9S classes. Otherwise why take one of these as a fighter bonus feat when you could just take a level in the appropriate class and get so very much more.

The fireball one (3rd level) has no prereqs and is a nice ability for a 10th level fighter. At that level it's not game breaking, but it is handy in about half the fights you get into.

Mark

 

[cheshire_grin]

1) This means that each maneuver is on par with an actual feat.
2) This means that the Martial Study feat is very underpowered.

#1. The Bo9S classes are fairly overpowered IMO.

Not really, because as you say:

most of the "good" strikes have prereqs, and even worse, the power of those strikes don't scale.

By the time a warblade or swordsage is using the really dangerous things they're 13th level or so--at that level, that kind of damage is neither overpowered nor particularly rare (consider the kind of damage a Wiz13 or Druid13 can dish out).

Worse, stances don't scale either, and unlike maneuvers you can't replace them at higher levels.

 

[Zurai]

Worse, stances don't scale either, and unlike maneuvers you can't replace them at higher levels.

Most stances don't, but there are two that do: the one that adds your initiator level to charge damage and the one that grants you resistance/immunity to fire based on tumble ranks.

Point remains, though.