Pathfinder 2E Martials > Casters

[Campbell]

Mostly Wizards and other arcane casters no longer have a unique niche.

Druids and other Primal casters get access to spells like Burning Hands, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold, Chain Lightning, and Cataclysm.

Bards on the other hand now gets access to the powerful control effects, personal scale bluffs and debuffs that use to set wizards apart.

I think Wizards still have a definite place, but they have lost a lot of their unique niche.

 

[CapnZapp]

On the other hand, the undeveloped niche that should be limited to wizards are the role of archmage. That is, if subsequent books start giving things to Wizards no other caster class can do, there just might be hope yet. It's if Paizo doesn't believe the situation to be problematic enough to remedy we are having a problem.

 

[Hoffmand]

Unless I am mistaken, he/she was talking about giving them new toys and then reconsidering that choice. No toys were taken from my understanding.

"I"m thinking of letting casters add weapon specialization damage to cantrips..."
"...Maybe I won't let them use weapon specialization."

I find damage cantrips and most damage spells a joke. Especially how they pr

On the other hand, the undeveloped niche that should be limited to wizards are the role of archmage. That is, if subsequent books start giving things to Wizards no other caster class can do, there just might be hope yet. It's if Paizo doesn't believe the situation to be problematic enough to remedy we are having a problem.

I was very disappointed that meta magic was taken from the wizard and given to the sorcerer. Made no sense to me. I really wanted the sorcerer to focus more on bloodline abilities. PF 1.0 really understood the sorcerer conceptually

 

[Porridge]

I was very disappointed that meta magic was taken from the wizard and given to the sorcerer. Made no sense to me. I really wanted the sorcerer to focus more on bloodline abilities. PF 1.0 really understood the sorcerer conceptually

That's interesting. I've had the opposite impression; Wizards seem better positioned with respect to metamagic in PF2 than PF1.

In PF1, both Sorcerers and Wizards can get pretty much any metamagic feat. The Wizard gets some bonus feats which can be used on metamagic feats. The Sorcerer gets bonus bloodline feats, which generally included at least a couple metamagic feats, and starts with a free metamagic feat (Eschew Materials).

But there the parity ends. For the Sorcerer can spontaneously choose whether to use a higher level spell slot for metamagic, while Wizards have to memorize higher level spell slot with metamagic ahead of time if they want to use it. In practice, this had the result in my games that Sorcerers used metamagic a lot, while Wizards rarely used metamagic. (For example, Wizards never used the Silent metamagic feat, because it's too situational to prepare ahead of time. But Sorcerers would often take it.)

In PF2, both Wizards and Sorcerers can use class feats to pick up metamagic. But unlike PF1, Wizards get access to some nice metamagic feats that aren't available to Sorcerers (like Conceal Spell, Silent Spell, Clever Counterspell). And unlike PF1, both Wizards and Sorcerers can apply metamagic on the fly, making them much more valuable to Wizards than they were in PF1.

So while in Sorcerers seemed to be the better metamagic spellcasters in PF1, Wizards seem to be the better metamagic spellcasters in PF2.

 

[Hoffmand]

That's interesting. I've had the opposite impression; Wizards seem better positioned with respect to metamagic in PF2 than PF1.

In PF1, both Sorcerers and Wizards can get pretty much any metamagic feat. The Wizard gets some bonus feats which can be used on metamagic feats. The Sorcerer gets bonus bloodline feats, which generally included at least a couple metamagic feats, and starts with a free metamagic feat (Eschew Materials).

But there the parity ends. For the Sorcerer can spontaneously choose whether to use a higher level spell slot for metamagic, while Wizards have to memorize higher level spell slot with metamagic ahead of time if they want to use it. In practice, this had the result in my games that Sorcerers used metamagic a lot, while Wizards rarely used metamagic. (For example, Wizards never used the Silent metamagic feat, because it's too situational to prepare ahead of time. But Sorcerers would often take it.)

In PF2, both Wizards and Sorcerers can use class feats to pick up metamagic. But unlike PF1, Wizards get access to some nice metamagic feats that aren't available to Sorcerers (like Conceal Spell, Silent Spell, Clever Counterspell). And unlike PF1, both Wizards and Sorcerers can apply metamagic on the fly, making them much more valuable to Wizards than they were in PF1.

So while in Sorcerers seemed to be the better metamagic spellcasters in PF1, Wizards seem to be the better metamagic spellcasters in PF2.

Haven’t played pf2. Can’t comment on that

 

[CapnZapp]

Metamagic is a higher-levelled option that might change things yes. I hope the changing nature of higher-levelled play will too (more instances where a spell really is gamechanging). I am confident that my current wizard-playing player can find them all. (Remember that I clearly state in my OP that my discussion is limited to low-level play.) That does not rectify that so far, the damage output of casters has been painfully eclipsed by the martials.

 

[Celtavian]

I'm assuming you're talking about cantrips with attack rolls (i.e. not electric arc?)

Yeah. Attack roll cantrips like Telekinetic Projectile or Ice Ray.

 

[Kaodi]

So the day we fought a flesh golem turned out to be a good day to have replaced a bunch of utility spells with lower level heals, heh. Not because I used them during the flesh golem fight, but I did use some of them in the fights before and after.

 

[Kaodi]

Sorry, forgot to come back and correct myself: It was a clay golem.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sorry, forgot to come back and correct myself: It was a clay golem.

For future reference: you can edit your own posts.

I don't know any details, but I believe the Clay Golem is a PF2 monster with some sort of playability issue. It seems things went fine for your party, though.