Mass Combat rules

Hey S'mon! :)

S'mon said:
Yeah, but you just made that up. :p

I didn't 'just make it up', I suggested it several months ago and as I recall you were in agreement with the idea then. :D

I think your scale makes more sense as "This is the sort of adventures PCs should be having", not "Monsters of this level should threaten this area". Not every foe 30th level PCS face can or should threaten the world.

Solo enemies in around 30th SHOULD threaten the world, otherwise they are just inflated numbers.

Anyway, on xpv look at my analysis of the actual throngs WotC has created. It supports halving the XPV. The orc throng works out exactly, 44 xp per orc, halve it, you get the xpv of the throng.

You shoehorned the whole analysis from the start. The Orc Throng may well simply be 10 Orcs rather than 18. I still don't see how battleaxes will function when its two orcs to a 5' square. They'd be chopping each others heads off.

Basic Lvl 3 +6 (x10) = Lvl 9

Simples. :p

No one has a 100x100" game table! At that level the whole table would be full of orcs, they would be terrain, not a unit.

Its also unlikely the DM would dress up in a Godzilla costume and stand on the table to represent a full size King of the Monsters.

However, you don't necessarily always need miniatures to roleplay.
 

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You shoehorned the whole analysis from the start. The Orc Throng may well simply be 10 Orcs rather than 18. I still don't see how battleaxes will function when its two orcs to a 5' square. They'd be chopping each others heads off.

Not every orc will be swinging its axe at the same time, but really an overhead swing takes little space. Try putting 18 armed men in a 15'x15' area, you'll see they fit in nicely and can wield most weapons ok. Even more in shield wall type formation.

There are only a few weapons, like the Dacian falx, that absolutely must have a wide area to use effectively, at least when it's a bunch of comrades. The 5'x5' D&D standard is more to allow friend & foe to intermingle, and to have room for over-scale minis.

Edit: Do you really think the orc throng is intended to represent 10 orcs?
 


I would not spend so much time on the number of units off the bat. I think its more important to get the levels and mechanics right.

As for the attack, I could see either a series of attack rolls or just auto damage for both melee and ranged attacks.

AutoDamage you can rationalize this way, by the numbers a player hit by 20 attacks from anything (even a 1st level chump) will be hit at least 1 time, regardless of AC. So autodamage seems reasonable to me when you have so many enemies and so many attacks.

Question: How does stunning/dazing/slowing type affects work here? Is the army immune to such effects?

Once again, I won't to note what an awesome idea I think this is.
 

I agree with Stalker0 {not too surprising there!} that the actual number is really a side-issue on this. Rather the appropriate level and size matters.

The way I have been doing the conversion is to up-level a critter, add an aura, modify the attacks to be simpler, and usually add a 'death burst' effect that leaves minions in the wake of the Throng.

Something else on the other thread I like is the idea of bloodied transformations, I have the following written down, not sure who posted them to begin with

[sblock]
When bloodied, reduce the size of the swarm and possibly add an
effect. Here are som more ideas on effects on swarm units upon
becoming bloodied. Think of these as part of the unit breaking up,
disbanding or plain and simple being killed.


(Brute) Berserk Formation - Decrease the space of the swarm two steps
if Gargantuan and one step if not - e.g. 6x6 becomes 3x3, 3x3 becomes
2x2. The swarm gains an aura 2 (or 3 if it started put as Gargantuan),
creatures that enter the aura or start their turn there take X damage.

(Soldier) Phalanx Formation - Decrease the space of the swarm two
steps if Gargantuan or one step if not - e.g. 6x6 becomes 3x3, 3x3
becomes 2x2. The swarm splits into two identical swarms (overlapping
each others spaces after the split, if necessary). The swarms share
hit points but have separate actions.

(Skirmisher) Guerilla Formation - Decrease the space of the swarm two
steps if Gargantuan or one step if not - e.g. 6x6 becomes 3x3, 3x3
becomes 2x2. The swarm gains a +4 bonus to (all its) speed(s). Also,
the swarm can shift 2 squares as a move action (or an additional
square if a power already grants them a similar ability).

(Artillery) Orb Formation - Decrease the space of the swarm two steps
if Gargantuan or one step if not - e.g. 6x6 becomes 3x3, 3x3 becomes
2x2. The swarm cannot be subject to unvoluntary forced movement. Also,
the swarm no longer provoke opportunity attacks when using ranged or
area powers.

(Lurker) Scattered Formation - The swarm splits into a number of
minions. The number is twice the amount of single creatures capable of
fitting along a single side of the swarm (e.g. 2x2 swarm becomes 4 1x1
swarms of medium creatures, 4x4 swarms becomes 8 1x1 swarms of medium
creatures or 4 2x2 swarms of large creatures). The minions are placed
anywhere within the space formerly occupied by the swarm, and can
shift (or teleport, if it is appropriate) their speed as a free action
upon being placed.

(Controller) Controlled Formation - Decrease the space of the swarm
two steps if Gargantuan or one step if not - e.g. 6x6 becomes 3x3, 3x3
becomes 2x2. The swarm can alter the space it occupies by one step
once per round as a free action, reverting to its real space at the
start of its next turn. Also, the size of its bursts and blasts are
increased by 1.
[/sblock]

In play this has worked very well and the players felt like they were wading through hundred of enemy Soldiers. I was clear to introduce the Throng in a meta-game way stating "around the corner come 50 Ragesian Veteran Warriors, the kind you faced back in the battle of the Obelisk. I am now treating them as two 'monsters' rather than 50 individuals. What this means is that you will face over 300 enemy combatants in this encounter!"

However, I am not sure that I will be able to scale up beyond this level well and the capstone battle is at 30th level. Meaning these Huge sized platoons will be minions and the PCs will face, literally, thousands of enemy combatants.

I do like how the XPV version tracks well with the system I already use for up-leveling monsters into the higher tiers by changing their type from Solo to Elite to Standard to Demi-monster to Minion. Changing to a Throng allows me to continue to use that Ragesian Master Archer that the group faced way back at 4th level :)
 

Hey S'mon! :)

S'mon said:
Not every orc will be swinging its axe at the same time,

...because Orc Barbarians are known for their discipline. :D

but really an overhead swing takes little space. Try putting 18 armed men in a 15'x15' area, you'll see they fit in nicely and can wield most weapons ok. Even more in shield wall type formation.

There are only a few weapons, like the Dacian falx, that absolutely must have a wide area to use effectively, at least when it's a bunch of comrades. The 5'x5' D&D standard is more to allow friend & foe to intermingle, and to have room for over-scale minis.

Its a matter of weaponry and discipline.

The orcs have little discipline AND weapons that need room to swing.

The zombies have no discipline (beyond pack mentality) but NO weaponry. Thus they could be densely packed.

A Unit of Roman Legionnaires would have the discipline AND weaponry to maintain a tighter formation.

Edit: Do you really think the orc throng is intended to represent 10 orcs?

Yes.

For the Zombie Throng, no I don't.

For densely packed/tight formations I think you could easily use 2/3rds space.

e.g. Pack of 10 zombies would be Large size (2x2) rather than Huge. Same with a Hobgoblin Phalanx. etc.

Tight Formation

10: = 2x2
20: = 3x3
32: = 4x4
100: = 7x7
320: = 12x12
1000: = 25x25
etc.

With a tight formation you could probably double the basic swarm parameters of Resistance against melee/ranged and Vulnerability against close/area...which I am thinking (for Units anyway) should be 5/Tier rather than a flat 10.
 

Hey Stalker0! :)

Stalker0 said:
I would not spend so much time on the number of units off the bat. I think its more important to get the levels and mechanics right.

I think I have the Levels determined well enough.

As for the attack, I could see either a series of attack rolls or just auto damage for both melee and ranged attacks.

I like the idea of Auto-damage when Engulfed.

AutoDamage you can rationalize this way, by the numbers a player hit by 20 attacks from anything (even a 1st level chump) will be hit at least 1 time, regardless of AC. So autodamage seems reasonable to me when you have so many enemies and so many attacks.

Agreed.

Question: How does stunning/dazing/slowing type affects work here? Is the army immune to such effects?

I would say any Unit would be immune to conditions unless the area of effect catches the entire Unit.

Once again, I won't to note what an awesome idea I think this is.

Bah...you think this is good I should break out my Super-solo rules for fighting (up to and including) Universe sized monsters. :cool:
 

A small army equaling a 30th level minion is great for me.

I ran a three-shot where the PCs fought Lolth, and they faced squads of elite drow warriors, who were represented by a level 30 minion for twenty or so drow. If a hit did enough damage (something like 30+), it killed them all. Otherwise it 'bloodied' them, and reduced their size from huge to large. Any other damage would kill them.

I'm totally fine with a fighter using a power that dazes to daze a whole throng. He hews through a handful of men with a single stroke of his sword, and then just glares at the throng, paralyzing them momentarily with fear.
 

Can you please take a moment to explain what XPV is? I've liked reading through this, but I feel I'll better understand when I know what that is.
 


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