Mass Combat Suggestion

[grmbrand]

Dunno if this is old news or not, but I thought it might be interesting to people who are looking for ways to resolve mass combat. The folks over at Cheapass Games publish a handful of free games, including a mass combat resolution system called Roll Out the Gun Barrels (ROGB). This system is really flexible, and abstract enough that it doesn't step on the tenets of the d20 system.

In my campaign, there are many warring regions at the periphery of the PCs' storyline. I use ROGB with my players to resolve conflicts in those continuous wars:

If the outcome of a particular battle will affect the PCs, I model the forces in ROGB but I -don't- tell the players what forces are represented. I let them pick a side and then we play out the battle according to the ROGB rules. Five minutes later, I've got my results and can use them in the game.

Happy Gaming,
Grmbrand

 

[FullTinCan]

Excellent suggestion. Its an abstract war-game without the micro-management of a wargame.

Great suggestion. Thanks for the link.

 

[Vaxalon]

The system breaks down rapidly if you get more than a handful of dice. Big dice go down fast, because you can easily scoop up all of the 1's and 2's on your little dice and kill them, no matter how big they are.

So each side just trades off losing dice. The one with more dice wins.

If someone offers you a game with a really high total, like thirty, take thirty 1-siders, or 15 2-siders if you can't get away with "one siders". You'll kick their asses.

I wouldn't recommend playing this game with more than twenty points worth, and minimum die size of four.

One way to balance it better would be to say that if a die is on its maximum number, it can capture that many dice that show a '1'. SO a twenty-sider on 20 could capture twenty foursiders on "1".

This would encourage some higher-numbered dice in the game.

 

[FullTinCan]

Another addition that might help increase the power of the big dice, is to add the following rule:

You make a direct assault on two dice if both the sum of the two dice and the product of the two dice is less than the attacking die.

Example:
I have a 12, 13, 4, 2
You have a 3, 3, 12, 15

I could use my twelve to take out your two 3s. (3+3 = 6, 3*3 = 9 both of which are less than 12).

Variant 1: You may direct assualt a multiple dice, such that the sum of the dice values times the number of dice is less than the value of the attacking die. A 12 could take a 2 & 3 [2*(2+3)=10]

This would allow you to clean up a number of smaller dice.

 

[KarinsDad]

This system seems very strange.

The person who goes first appears to have a big advantage since he can leave his large dice with large numbers as is and destroy smaller enemy units with larger dice with a small numbers on them and then get to re-roll those larger dice. Granted, some of them might get destroyed, but most should get even larger on average.

He can also have his big dice (or even preferably several smaller ones) destroy an opponent's large dice with a big number.

If he takes out all of his opponent's largest dice, his opponent will have a lot less to counter with.

Say each side had three dice, D4, D6, and D8 and in order, they roll:

1 3 5

4 2 4

The totals on the dice are 9 for the 1 3 5 side and 10 for the 4 2 4 side.

So, the 1 3 5 side has basically two options of attack:

1) The 1 3 5 side decides to automatically destroy the 4 on the 4 sided with a flank and the 4 on the 8 sided. He gets to re-roll all of his dice, has a 100% chance of the 4 sider surviving, a 67% chance of the 6 sider surviving and a 50% chance of the 8 sider surviving.

The only chance that the 4 2 4 side has is if the 1 3 5 side rolls a 1 on his D4, or if he rolls a 2 on it an misses the re-roll on the D6 and D8. Otherwise, the 4 2 4 side loses.

2) The 1 3 5 side decides to automatically destroy the 2 on the 6 sided and the 4 on the 8 sided. He gets to re-roll his D6 and D8 with the same 67% chance of the 6 sider surviving and 50% chance of the 8 sider surviving.

The only chance that the 4 2 4 side has is if the 1 3 5 side misses both this D6 and D8 rerolls. But, even if that happens (16%), there is still a 75% chance at a draw when the D4s square off (i.e. the re-roll on the 4 2 4 D4 must be a 4 for the 4 2 4 side to win).


The first side should almost always take out as many large dice with small rolls so that they cannot take out a small unit of his and re-roll larger.

And, large dice with large rolls will rarely be used since it is so difficult to re-roll large on them (i.e. they tend to get destroyed when they attack).

 

[Christian]

Your analysis is a bit off, KD, but the conclusion remains inescapable, methinks. You only get to attack one enemy die per turn, so your first round doesn't go down quite the way you envisioned. Still, initiative plays a huge role in this system, as you noted; also, the balancing is way off. It works on point-value as the number of sides on your die; but in fact, because there's only one attack per turn, a large number of small dice is vastly superior to a smaller number of large dice, regardless of who wins the first initiative. Six four-siders will almost always soundly defeat two twelve-siders ...

 

[grmbrand]

The system breaks down rapidly if you get more than a handful of dice. Big dice go down fast, because you can easily scoop up all of the 1's and 2's on your little dice and kill them, no matter how big they are.

That's certainly true, but keep in mind that "Large" dice (bigger than d10) represent a small percentage of your force. Also remember that in the end, the winner is the one whose captured dice have the most total -sides-. Sure, you can use your d1's and d2's to gang up on a d10, but you'll have won more if you use them to capture two seperate d6's.

The system is by no means perfect, but if your opposing forces are fairly uniform, I think the luck-to-strategy ratio balances out pretty well.

Cheers,
Grmbrand

 

[KarinsDad]

You only get to attack one enemy die per turn, so your first round doesn't go down quite the way you envisioned.

Missed that part.

Ok, this makes more sense.

Now, how do we equate a D20 to a 15th level Wizard in the opposing army where he will rarely get taken out by peons?

 

[Vaxalon]

Personally, I don't think it's a terribly great system for that kind of battle.

You could make a rule where the maximum number of dice that could be combined together is one more than the number of dice that were LAST combined together.

That means, on the first turn, only one die could be used; then two, then three; if someone used just one die, then the number gets reset and the other player uses one or two, etc.

 

[Virago]

This is sort of cute. Tweak rules spring to mind that are fun to think about:

I could see a good way of keeping little dice from swarming big dice-- if more than two dice are used in flanking, half the dice (rounded down) die in the process. So if you flank with three dice, one dies (defender's pick, before the attacker's dice are rerolled). If you flank with four, two dice perish before the reroll, etc. This makes the lower dice better as "finesse" than as hordelings.

Shoring up: once at the beginning of the game, each player may reroll one of his dice. Thereafter, each player may reroll one die at the end of his turn. This will help out the bigger dice.

Steamroller: a single attacker die can kill multiple defender dice as long as: (a) The sume of the defending dice is still less than the attacking die, and (b) The sum of all the sides of the defending dice is less than the number of sides of the attacking die. So a d12 that rolls a 9 can steamroller over any two d4s, or up to five d2s! (Hmm this might be very nasty).

Special missions: Instead of attacking, a player can remove one of his dice showing a 1 from the table, and then choose any other die on the table to be rerolled. If it's the player's own die, this was a reinforcement or resupply. If it's an opponent's die, this was espionage or a commando mission.

I have no ideas what this might do to the victory points. Or the game itself really. I imagine it makes the bigger dice more important, makes hordeling armies not so great, and makes a balanced army more attractive, but who knows.

Now I know what little game will be haunting the back of my mind for the next few days. Thanks a lot, grmbrand