Massive Damage...as a Reflex Check?

[Water Bob]

Does it make sense that the check against Massive Damage is a Fortitude check? I see the angle, but doesn't it make more sense to go with a Reflex check since that would indicate that you've averted/dodged the most hurtful part of the blow?

About a decade ago, I was slicing the waves on a Jet Ski (acutally, they were Sea-Doo's) when this idiot hot dog ex-friend of mine was negligent and slammed into me. He almost killed me. Doc said my spine was almost severed, had it been about half an inch to the right.

I made my Massive Damage save, you could say. But, it wasn't about me and my body withstanding the damage because I'm so tough. It was the luck that the damage didn't hit where it could have done the most harm to me.

That's a Reflex Save.

Thoughts?

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

I think the save type could vary according to the DM's judgment.

But, I also wonder about the necessity of even having a Massive Damage Save? We've house-ruled out the Massive Damage Save after trying all sorts of variants. A flat 50hp or more just didn't work for us. And, other variants added more complexity than either of our DM's wanted to track.

 

[Water Bob]

I think the save type could vary according to the DM's judgment.

I prolly should be based on luck or fate or some such, but since the game doesn't have a stat for that, I think Reflex is really what's going on when a Massive Damage save is made or failed.

But, I also wonder about the necessity of even having a Massive Damage Save? We've house-ruled out the Massive Damage Save after trying all sorts of variants. A flat 50hp or more just didn't work for us. And, other variants added more complexity than either of our DM's wanted to track.

I'm using the Conan RPG. A flat 50 didn't work for you? Conan uses a flat 20 hp!

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

I prolly should be based on luck or fate or some such, but since the game doesn't have a stat for that, I think Reflex is really what's going on when a Massive Damage save is made or failed.

For me, the stat for that is Hit Points. To me, they represent more than just the ability to withstand physical damage. They represent everything from combat prowess to luck to divine intervention and more in turning otherwise lethal blows into less than lethal blows.

I'm using the Conan RPG. A flat 50 didn't work for you? Conan uses a flat 20 hp!

It's the flat part that bothers me. It should scale based upon level or hit dice and size. We had a very good system for this worked out (based off some ideas in WotC's Unearthed Arcana), but ultimately it was too complex and we almost always forgot to make Massive Damage Saving Throws, anyway. It's probably due to the fact that our group has been playing since the 80's and we never used anything like Massive Damage Saves til 3rd Edition came out and it just didn't catch on with us. We also tried other things like Vitality and Wound Points, but found them less than satisfying.

May I suggest three links that I found really helpful concerning Hit Points, Save or Die Effects, and Death & Dying?

I saw in another thread that you liked an article by The Alexandrian (which I really like, too) and I thought you might find these links interesting in considering whether or not you need the Massive Damage Save, at all.

• The Alexandrian: Explaining Hit Points
  
• The Alexandrian: Save or Die Effects
  
• The Alexandrian: Optional Death & Dying

Number is my favorite. We changed the DC's of the Saving Throws to 10+(1/2 neg HP) to increase the chance of someone being in the disabled state and it's working beautifully. Also, we use a fixed amount per level equal to half the size of the hit die plus 1 to determine hit points (d12=7, d10=6, d8=5, d6=4, d4=3), plus CON modifier, of course. If starting HP are less than 10+Fort, we use 10+Fort (minimum 10) for starting hit points. No PC has less than 10 hit points at 1st level. So far, it has a very grim-n-gritty feel without increasing the lethality of the game.

 

[Water Bob]

For me, the stat for that is Hit Points.

Absolutely. Maybe I had more hit points than I thought I had when the jet ski hit me.

Probably should have been James Bond...ah, crap. Who am I kidding! Let's not get carried away...

It's the flat part that bothers me.

There's an alternate rule in the Conan rpg that can be used. Total CON score + DEX mod + STR mod.

For example, CON 13, STR 19, DEX 9, would be: 13 + 4 - 1 = 16.

Of course, 16! That's too low! But, it's not "flat".

I guess you could slap some other mods in there to get number up a bit.

I saw in another thread that you liked an article by The Alexandrian (which I really like, too) and I thought you might find these links interesting in considering whether or not you need the Massive Damage Save, at all.

Yeah, I read the entire site. I don't agree with everything he says, especially the hit point article, but the guy is definitely worth reading.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Absolutely. Maybe I had more hit points than I thought I had when the jet ski hit me.

Probably should have been James Bond...ah, crap. Who am I kidding! Let's not get carried away...

I don't have the stats for what damage a Jet Ski can potentially inflict on a hit, but I'd imagine that it's not as many as some might imagine. I agree with the Alexandrian that most 'real world' people are likely not higher than first level (and have NPC classes, rather than PC classes). So, I conclude that it's unlikely that you have have very many hit points. So, the saving throw v. massive damage rule probably didn't even come into play, in your situation. Unless you really are on the level of James Bond (probably a 6th level rogue with a 14 CON... about 36 hit points).

There's an alternate rule in the Conan rpg that can be used. Total CON score + DEX mod + STR mod.

For example, CON 13, STR 19, DEX 9, would be: 13 + 4 - 1 = 16.

Of course, 16! That's too low! But, it's not "flat".

I guess you could slap some other mods in there to get number up a bit.

To me, that's still pretty 'flat,' unless it scales with level and is adjusted for the size of the creature. Maybe 'flat' is the wrong word? But, my opinion is that it should scale with level or hit dice and be adjusted for creature size.

Yeah, I read the entire site. I don't agree with everything he says, especially the hit point article, but the guy is definitely worth reading.

What part of the hit point article did you disagree with most and why did you disagree with it?

 

[Water Bob]

I don't have the stats for what damage a Jet Ski can potentially inflict on a hit, but I'd imagine that it's not as many as some might imagine. I agree with the Alexandrian that most 'real world' people are likely not higher than first level (and have NPC classes, rather than PC classes). So, I conclude that it's unlikely that you have have very many hit points. So, the saving throw v. massive damage rule probably didn't even come into play, in your situation. Unless you really are on the level of James Bond (probably a 6th level rogue with a 14 CON... about 36 hit points).

I was joking. I'm sure I don't have very many hit points.

But, I do think I made a save vs. Massive Damage. I was disabled, bed bound, for a month.

Could have been dead or paralyzed.

To me, that's still pretty 'flat,' unless it scales with level and is adjusted for the size of the creature. Maybe 'flat' is the wrong word? But, my opinion is that it should scale with level or hit dice and be adjusted for creature size.

That would be hard to do becuase damage doesn't scale up that much (a little, but not like leveling). So, a character would quickly outgrow the MD amount.

What part of the hit point article did you disagree with most and why did you disagree with it?

The part about a hit always being an acutal hit. Logically, it can't be. And, what about missile weapons? Those are hits, too? So, a character with 35 hit points gets hit with 3 arrows and is OK after a night's sleep?

Naw, I don't think all damage has to be physical the way he says.

Here's my take on what hit points are, from a post I made:

Hit points represents physical damage, and they do represent non-physical damage. They're an abstract way of expression small cuts, nicks, bruises, strained muscles, pulled tendons and other physical damage that is not critical. That's one reason why they take so long to heal--these types of things take time.

But, in addition to those minor physical traits of hit points, they also cover luck, expertise, Fate and the whim of the gods, fatigue, endurance, catching your breath, and all sorts of intangible, uncountable hindrances that can come into play during a battle.

The game doesn't specifically model that you twisted your ankle yesterday and, everytime you step on it, it hurts, but something like that would make you less effective in combat (thus you would have lower hit points than max).

And, besides that, hit points take into account that moment, right in the middle of your swing, when sweat drops into your eye, stinging it so much it autmatically blinks at the wrong instant, distracting you by just a fraction of a second--which can be deadly in a face-to-face combat.

Hit points are all this, plus the effects of that cold you're fighting off or the headache you have from last night's romp, all rolled together with all of your minor aches and pains and other distractions that would make you less effective in combat.

So, they're much more than just physical damage--and sometimes, they're not physical damage at all, unlike what the article says.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Hi, Water Bob.

I've been busy offline, so my apologies for taking so long to respond.

I was joking. I'm sure I don't have very many hit points.

But, I do think I made a save vs. Massive Damage. I was disabled, bed bound, for a month.

Could have been dead or paralyzed.

I don't understand why you think you'd've saved against Massive Damage if you don't have more hit points than the amount of hit points damage that provokes such a saving throw. I'm confused by this line of thought.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Scaling the Massive Damage Threshold based on Size and Hit Dice

That would be hard to do becuase damage doesn't scale up that much (a little, but not like leveling). So, a character would quickly outgrow the MD amount.

I agree that damage doesn't scale as much, but it does to some degree. The trick would be to have a creature's Massive Damage Threshold scale by a very small amount.

Here's the basics of how my hourse rule for it worked until we dropped it from the game. Mine was a Fortitude Save, but since you like Reflex Saves, I'll use that.

Massive Damage Threshold:
A character or creatures Massive Damage Threshold is equal to twice the sum of 10 plus their Reflex Save bonus or penalty (including all modifiers) minus their Size Modifier.

MDT = 2 x (10 + Ref - Special Size Mod)​

Size Modifier
The special size modifier is as follows: Colossal +8, Gargantuan +4, Huge +2, Large +1, Medium +0, Small -1, Tiny -2, Diminutive -4, Fine -8.​

This version models the idea that smaller creatures often have better reflexes that help them avoid taking massive damage.


Here's how I did it using the Fortitude Save v. Massive Damage:

Massive Damage Threshold:
A character or creature's Massive Damage Threshold is equal to twice the sum of 10 plus their Fortitude Save bonus or penalty (including all modifiers) plus their Size Modifier.

MDT = 2 x (10 + Fort + Size Mod)​

Size Modifier
The special size modifier is as follows: Colossal +8, Gargantuan +4, Huge +2, Large +1, Medium +0, Small -1, Tiny -2, Diminutive -4, Fine -8.​

This version models the idea that larger creatures can suffer greater damage without suffering ill effects.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Originally posted by Hrothgar Rannulfr:
I saw in another thread that you liked an article by The Alexandrian (which I really like, too) and I thought you might find these links interesting in considering whether or not you need the Massive Damage Save, at all.

Originally posted by Water Bob:
Yeah, I read the entire site. I don't agree with everything he says, especially the hit point article, but the guy is definitely worth reading.

Originally posted by Hrothgar Rannulfr:
What part of the hit point article did you disagree with most and why did you disagree with it?

Originally posted by Water Bob:
The part about a hit always being an acutal hit. Logically, it can't be. And, what about missile weapons? Those are hits, too? So, a character with 35 hit points gets hit with 3 arrows and is OK after a night's sleep?

Naw, I don't think all damage has to be physical the way he says.

Here's my take on what hit points are, from a post I made:

Hit points represents physical damage, and they do represent non-physical damage. They're an abstract way of expression small cuts, nicks, bruises, strained muscles, pulled tendons and other physical damage that is not critical. That's one reason why they take so long to heal--these types of things take time.

But, in addition to those minor physical traits of hit points, they also cover luck, expertise, Fate and the whim of the gods, fatigue, endurance, catching your breath, and all sorts of intangible, uncountable hindrances that can come into play during a battle.

The game doesn't specifically model that you twisted your ankle yesterday and, everytime you step on it, it hurts, but something like that would make you less effective in combat (thus you would have lower hit points than max).

And, besides that, hit points take into account that moment, right in the middle of your swing, when sweat drops into your eye, stinging it so much it autmatically blinks at the wrong instant, distracting you by just a fraction of a second--which can be deadly in a face-to-face combat.

Hit points are all this, plus the effects of that cold you're fighting off or the headache you have from last night's romp, all rolled together with all of your minor aches and pains and other distractions that would make you less effective in combat.

So, they're much more than just physical damage--and sometimes, they're not physical damage at all, unlike what the article says.

Interesting... I thought along similar lines, for quite a while. Especially, when working on a homebrewed Vitality & Wound Point Variant for which I wanted to bring in Healing Surges from 4E. But I eventually abondoned it after reading The Alexandrian's article on it and seeing how treating Hit Points as not modelling physical damage affected the feel of the game (which was the more important factor to me).

Question... How, exactly, does a character recover from 35 hit points of damage with a simple night's sleep without being 35th level? I have a feeling we aren't talking about a character of sixth level or less with appropriate equipment for his level. I thought a simple night's sleep only allowed a character to recover his level in hit points. We must be talking about a 35th level character, right? And, 35 hit points probably means that the three arrows barely grazed him.