Massive Damage...as a Reflex Check?

[Water Bob]

But I eventually abondoned it after reading The Alexandrian's article on it and seeing how treating Hit Points as not modelling physical damage affected the feel of the game (which was the more important factor to me).

There are strong points in the Alexandrian article, no doubt, but, it really affects the feel of the game for me if a character gets 35 points of damage from several arrows and is fully healed in a day or two. The ony way to reconcile that is to consider all the arrow hits as grazes, and we know from real life that grazes are an exception, not the rule.

Question... How, exactly, does a character recover from 35 hit points of damage with a simple night's sleep without being 35th level? I have a feeling we aren't talking about a character of sixth level or less with appropriate equipment for his level. I thought a simple night's sleep only allowed a character to recover his level in hit points. We must be talking about a 35th level character, right? And, 35 hit points probably means that the three arrows barely grazed him.

I don't play D&D, so I don't know what the healing is like in that game. Maybe that's the disconnect. I play the Conan RPG, which is a 3.5 variant.

In Conan, a character gains a number of points equal to his level, plus CON mod, plus 3 per 8 hours of sleep. Plus, a character with the Heal skill can help him gain more.

If would go like this...

Chad, the 6th level Barbarian, is in a combat with a Pict warrior. The Pict fires his bow at Chad. When the combat is done, the Pict is dead, and Chad has been hit 5 times by the Pict's bow, for a total of 35 hit points.

I have a hard time believing that Chad has 5 arrows sticking out of him, and Chad is still walking around, running, doing whatever he wants (let's say Chad still has 6 more hit points left).

Right after the fight, Chad's companion, Ralf, uses his Heal skill on Chad. The restores 6 + 2 = 8 points. Now, Chad is down 27 points.

Resting for 8 hours restores Level + CON Mod + 3 points of damage.

Chad sleeps that night, and gets 6 + 2 + 3 = 11 points. But, since Ralf is nursing him back to health, he gets double that. That's 22 hit points.

So, by the next morning Chad is only down 5 hit points after being hit by 5 arrows the previous day.

Given that, there's no way that hit point reduction equates to physical damage. I can, but not all the time, or this situation that happend (in the Conan game, at least) would not be possible.





A character is never really damaged physically (other than the minor damage I describe earlier in the thread) until he reaches 0 hit points or less--when his wound effects kick in.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

I think you're right. I was thinking in 3.5 D&D terms and had no idea that Conan was really that much different from 3.5.

Based upon you explanation, Hit Points are definitely something different in the Conan RPG than they are in 3.5 D&D.

 

[Water Bob]

I think you're right. I was thinking in 3.5 D&D terms and had no idea that Conan was really that much different from 3.5.

Based upon you explanation, Hit Points are definitely something different in the Conan RPG than they are in 3.5 D&D.

Well, there's no magical healing in Conan (extremely little), so they had to do something. Armor doesn't increase AC either. It absorbs damage. Dodging without armor is a viable defense, and a lot of character types shun armor. Plus, most of the weapon types do more damage than in normal D&D. A Battleaxe does 1d10. An Arbalest (heavy crossbow) does 2d8. A War Club does 2d6. And a Greatsword does 1d10+1d8 (2-18).

With the Massive Damage threshold set at just 20 points of damage, it's a dark, brutal game.



I still have a problem, though, with Justin's take on hit points in his article, even from a D&D prospective. Going by your link above, a character returns his level in hit points after 8 hours of rest. OK.

But, that's just looking at would recovery--how long it takes a wound to heal.

You must also look at would effect.

Let's say you have a 6th level Fighter with 41 hit points, and a couple of gobbies come up and plow him full of arrows. He takes 9 arrow hits that totals 35 points of damage.

He's a porcupine.

First off, he's still got 6 hit points....and he can run, he can continue to fight, he can do anything he wants because he's not penalized for being hit and wounded by 9 arrows.

Now, don't you think that if even ONE arrow pierced his skin and lodged deep in any part of his body (leg, arm, torso, back, neck, you name it), that he'd at least be subject to the rules of "Disabled"?

This is why I don't agree with Justin's article. Those 9 arrows cannot have actually done a lot of damage to the Fighter because he's not penalized in any fashion.

With no magical healing, only getting his 6 hp a day back (the D&D game should at least throw in his CON modifier to up that a bit), it will take him about 6 days to get back to full health. AFTER BEING SHOT BY 9 ARROWS!!??

I think not.

None of those arrows could have done that much damage.

I think, therefore, that Justin is wrong and my take on hit points (earlier in the thread--copied below, in green, for easy reference) makes more sense.





Hit points represents physical damage, and they do represent non-physical damage. They're an abstract way of expression small cuts, nicks, bruises, strained muscles, pulled tendons and other physical damage that is not critical. That's one reason why they take so long to heal--these types of things take time.

But, in addition to those minor physical traits of hit points, they also cover luck, expertise, Fate and the whim of the gods, fatigue, endurance, catching your breath, and all sorts of intangible, uncountable hindrances that can come into play during a battle.

The game doesn't specifically model that you twisted your ankle yesterday and, everytime you step on it, it hurts, but something like that would make you less effective in combat (thus you would have lower hit points than max).

And, besides that, hit points take into account that moment, right in the middle of your swing, when sweat drops into your eye, stinging it so much it autmatically blinks at the wrong instant, distracting you by just a fraction of a second--which can be deadly in a face-to-face combat.

Hit points are all this, plus the effects of that cold you're fighting off or the headache you have from last night's romp, all rolled together with all of your minor aches and pains and other distractions that would make you less effective in combat.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

How does the Conan RPG handle penalizing characters that take damage that does not reduce them to zero hit points (or lower)?

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Thought it might be worthwhile to let the creator of the game remind us of what hit points were meant to represent. I think it's actually very similar to what you're saying.

HIT POINTS

It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage -- as indicated by constitution bonuses – and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the “sixth sense” which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness).

Harkening back to the example of Rasputin, it would be safe to assume that he could withstand physical damage sufficient to have killed any four normal men, i.e. more than 14 hit points. Therefore, let us assume that a character with an 18 constitution will eventually be able to withstand no less than 15 points of actual physical damage before being slain, and that perhaps as many as 23 hit points could constitute the physical makeup of a character. The balance of accrued hit points are those which fall into the non-physical areas already detailed. Furthermore, these actual physical hit points would be spread across a large number of levels, starting from a base score of from an average of 3 to 4 going up to 6 to 8 at 2nd level, 9 to 11 at 3rd, 12 to 14 at 4th, 15 to 17 at 5th, 18 to 20 at 6th and 21 to 23 at 7th level. Note that the above assumes the character is a fighter with an average of 3 hit points per die going to physical ability to withstand punishment and only 1 point of constitution bonus being likewise assigned. Beyond the basic physical damage sustained, hits scored upon a character do not actually do such an amount of physical damage.

Consider a character who is a 10th level fighter with an 18 constitution. This character would have an average of 5½ hit points per die, plus a constitution bonus of 4 hit points, per level, or 95 hit points! Each hit scored upon the character does only a small amount of actual physical harm --- the sword thrust that would have run a first level fighter through the heart merely grazes the character due to the fighter’s exceptional skill, luck, and sixth sense ability which caused movement to avoid the attack at just the right moment. However, having sustained 40 or 50 hit points of damage, our lordly fighter will be covered with a number of nicks, scratches, cuts, and bruises. It will require a long period of rest and recuperation to regain the physical and metaphysical peak of 95 hit points.

--Gary E. Gygax, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Dungeon Master’s Guide, p.82

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Of course, Gygax's references to game numbers refer to 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons rules, not 3.5 or Conan RPG, but some of the same thoughts are there.

However, Gygax was more stingy with natural healing than 3.5 (and definitely more so than the Conan RPG). An injured character could only expect to heal 1 hp per night of rest for the first week of rest. And, if the character had a constitution penalty to hit points, that applied as a penalty to that 1st week's healing. But, no bonus was gained if the character had a constitution bonus to hit points until the second week of healing. So a character with an 18 constitution would heal 11 hit points per week after the first week and only 7 hit points the first week.

Gygax seemed to consider the metaphysical portion of hit points much harder to recover than the physical hit points, since he held that the majority of level based hit points weren't physical. At least he was merciful enough to allow any character that had 1 full month's rest to fully recover all hit points. And, I think this makes it clear that as long as the charcter is above zero hit points, he hasn't sustained any serious injury.

Far more brutal than the modern versions of the game than I'm aware of.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

So, it seems to me that the difference between you and Justin is whether or not the a hit is a hit. For Justin, the answer is yes, but it's not serious until the character drops to zero or fewer hit points (even if nine arrows fail to drop the character to zero or fewer hit points). For you, the arrows couldn't have even hit the charcter, or he'd be a porcupine and should've been disabled (at least).

But, then you're using an example of a sixth level fighter... A character that is practically a demigod of war compared to real life people. So, I think as difficult as it is to imagine, such a character would really only be grazed by such arrows until it dropped him to zero or fewer hit points. And, then, only the wound that took him to zero or fewer was actually serious. All the others were very minor. And, only the portion that was actually below zero was anything close to major (and that's why he'd gain the disabled condition or be unconscious and dying under Justin's alternate death and dying rules).

But, back to the original question... Is it OK to use a Reflex Save instead of a Fort Save v. Massive Damage? I say it depends upon your definition of hit points. And, from what you've written in the thread about the nature of the game you're playing, it seems that a Reflex save fits that game, since hit points seem to be more non-physical than physical in your game. I'm wondering what the logic was behind the choice to keep it a Fortitude save in the RAW Conan RPG? The fact that they left it that way and chose to allow the heal skill to restore hit points seems to indicate that the designer(s) of the Conan RPG thought at least some of the hit points were physical, even above zero. Hmmm.....

It seems, to me, to be differences in the idea of how quickly the metaphysical portion of hit points can be restored. For Gygax, it was a long time. For D&D 3.5, it was shorter, but still longer than the Conan RPG. For Justin Alexander, it seems that hit points are practically all physical, even if the wounds aren't that serious.

Practically all the systems agree that lost hit points don't represent serious wounds until the character is dropped to zero or fewer hit points. The main difference is in how fast minor wounds recover and/or what percentage isn't really a wound at all. In system's where it's not really a wound, it might be better to go with Trailblazer's version and allow a character to recover 50% of their max hit points with just 10 minutes of rest (if the character's hit points are zero or greater). It's a really good solution to healing non-physcal wounds (recovering stamina)... (and, I may have to take this into consideration in adjusting my own houserules on the subject... A combination of The Alexandrian's and Trailblazer's rules).

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

continuing to think in print because I find this subject interesting...

Just looked up Trailblazer's Save v. Massive Damage rule... It's a fortitude save, too. So, even with their decidedly non-physical view of positive hit points (based upon the idea that 50% of them can be recovered with nothing more than 10 minutes of rest), it seems that a "hit" that provokes the need to save v. massive damage is physical. The question is whether it will be nothing more than other minor scuffs and scraps (that total the same amount of hit point damage) or if it will be a mortal wound. If the save is made, it's just another minor bump, bruise, or scrape. If the save is failed, it's a mortal wound.

If the Reflex save were used in place of the Fort save, then it wouldn't be as likely to be a minor bump, bruise, or scrape as it would be likely to be a near miss. It could still be, but I think I'd describe it as a very near miss instead of minor nick.

 

[Water Bob]

How does the Conan RPG handle penalizing characters that take damage that does not reduce them to zero hit points (or lower)?

Just like most other 3.5 based d20 games. The character is not affected by a wound until he drops to 0 hit points (Disabled) or below (Unconscious, and dead at -10 hp).

Therefore, with all d20 based games (that don't use a different hit points system, such as the ones that have Vitality or something like it), a character is not seriously damaged until his hit points reach zero.

If he has at least one hit point, then he can do everything, without hindrance, that he can do when he's fully healed.

It's at zero hit points that the wound effects start.

But, then you're using an example of a sixth level fighter... A character that is practically a demigod of war compared to real life people.

Take a first level fighter, then, with 9 hit points. He's shot by 2 arrows in a fight, taking off 8 hit points.

We look at how long it takes the wound to heal: 8 days (healing 1 pt. per day) for two arrow hits....getting better, but still not long enough healing time, I would think, unless they were superficial wounds. A deep scratch on Monday heals by next Sunday, that sort of thing.

We look at wound effects: Even with the two arrow hits, the character is not barred from doing any activity. His move stat is the same. He can run, jump, climb. He can carry the same amount of weight. Does that sound like a wounded character to you?

But, if we think of hit points using what Gygax said (and my interpertation), then it starts to make sense. The character is a hero in a fantasy same, so he's not really impeded by those two near-misses. But, he strained his foot getting out of the way, doding those things. So, now, it takes a week for his foot to stop being sore.

That makes a lot more sense to me than what Justin is saying--that the arrow hits are actual wounds.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Echoing one of Justin's arguments...

What if one of the arrows is poisoned?

Why have a fort save v. poison if it's not actually a hit?