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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4794354" data-attributes="member: 2011">I don't. I see that you are screwing your players whose PCs use heavy armor and rewarding the player of the Rogue.With the AV / PHB II rules and assuming that you gave the Paladin the same +3 armor that you handed out to the other PCs, against average same level foes, this would become:Rogue: 25 AC, foe hits on a 10 (55%)Barbarian: 27 AC, foe hits on a 12 (45%)Cleric: 27 AC, foe hits on a 12 (45%)Paladin: 30 AC, foe hits on a 15 (30%)Sure, the Barbarian and Cleric have a 45% chance to get hit. But both of them took a feat (two feats in the case of the Barbarian) so that they would not be at 50% against same level foes.Sure, the Paladin is much harder to hit. He's supposed to be. He's a defender and will get attacked more than his allies on average. He's still going to get hit one attack in three. And, I bet his Reflex defense sucks.And, the game is not designed for every encounter to be against same level foes. A standard encounter is same level or same level +1. Without even getting to a difficult encounter, this means that level +1 foes in a standard encounter would be:Rogue: 25 AC, foe hits on a 9 (60%)Barbarian: 27 AC, foe hits on a 11 (50%)Cleric: 27 AC, foe hits on a 11 (50%)Paladin: 30 AC, foe hits on a 14 (35%)3 out of 4 members of this party get hit 50% or more of the time in this standard encounter. That's not enough for you?If the Rogue took the Hide armor feat like the Cleric took the Scale armor feat, the Rogue would be better protected. His choice. If the Rogue took shield proficiency, he would also be better protected. He shouldn't have the same AC as his fellow PCs who used feats to do so.But with the PHB (screwed up) heavy armor rules, the Barbarian and Cleric have the same chance of being hit as the Rogue, even though the Barbarian and Cleric took one or more feats. You are screwing your Barbarian and Cleric.So, you are screwing 3 of your 4 players because 3 of 4 are wearing heavy armor.Seriously. People have looked at the math very carefully. Not using the AV masterwork armor rules is going to screw some of your players. I doubt you will find many people here that agree with your POV.And, the fact that your supposed to be squishy Rogue has the same AC as your Barbarian and Cleric should throw up a big red flag that something is wrong. What is wrong is that your heavy armors are too low because you are following the PHB broken rules on them. Your Rogues does more damage than the other two PCs and has as good of AC as the two PCs that used feats to get there when he did not.You see nothing wrong with that?Here are the number on the die needed by same level foes (to hit level +5) with your Rogue, Barbarian/Cleric, and Paladin using core rules and using AV rules. I am assuming they get +1 better armor at levels 3, 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26:[code]1&nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 142&nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 143&nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 144&nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 145&nbsp;&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 136&nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 147&nbsp;&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 138&nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 139&nbsp;&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 1210&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 1211&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 1212&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 1213&nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 1114&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 1115&nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 1016&nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 1417&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 1318&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 1319&nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 1220&nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 1221&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 1222&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 1223&nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 1124&nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 1125&nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 1026&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 1427&nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 1328&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 1329&nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 1230&nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 12[/code]Although the Rogue was easier to hit at level one, he is actually harder to hit than the Cleric or Barbarian at levels 14 or 15 and often the same to hit due to the flaw in the math. In the first three columns, this is not the case. The better armor (i.e. heavy) is better.At levels 14 and 15 with core rules, Leather + Dex = Plate armor. WT?That's fixed in AV.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 4794354, member: 2011"] I don't. I see that you are screwing your players whose PCs use heavy armor and rewarding the player of the Rogue. With the AV / PHB II rules and assuming that you gave the Paladin the same +3 armor that you handed out to the other PCs, against average same level foes, this would become: Rogue: 25 AC, foe hits on a 10 (55%) Barbarian: 27 AC, foe hits on a 12 (45%) Cleric: 27 AC, foe hits on a 12 (45%) Paladin: 30 AC, foe hits on a 15 (30%) Sure, the Barbarian and Cleric have a 45% chance to get hit. But both of them took a feat (two feats in the case of the Barbarian) so that they would not be at 50% against same level foes. Sure, the Paladin is much harder to hit. He's supposed to be. He's a defender and will get attacked more than his allies on average. He's still going to get hit one attack in three. And, I bet his Reflex defense sucks. And, the game is not designed for every encounter to be against same level foes. A standard encounter is same level or same level +1. Without even getting to a difficult encounter, this means that level +1 foes in a standard encounter would be: Rogue: 25 AC, foe hits on a 9 (60%) Barbarian: 27 AC, foe hits on a 11 (50%) Cleric: 27 AC, foe hits on a 11 (50%) Paladin: 30 AC, foe hits on a 14 (35%) 3 out of 4 members of this party get hit 50% or more of the time in this standard encounter. That's not enough for you? If the Rogue took the Hide armor feat like the Cleric took the Scale armor feat, the Rogue would be better protected. His choice. If the Rogue took shield proficiency, he would also be better protected. He shouldn't have the same AC as his fellow PCs who used feats to do so. But with the PHB (screwed up) heavy armor rules, the Barbarian and Cleric have the same chance of being hit as the Rogue, even though the Barbarian and Cleric took one or more feats. You are screwing your Barbarian and Cleric. So, you are screwing 3 of your 4 players because 3 of 4 are wearing heavy armor. Seriously. People have looked at the math very carefully. Not using the AV masterwork armor rules is going to screw some of your players. I doubt you will find many people here that agree with your POV. And, the fact that your supposed to be squishy Rogue has the same AC as your Barbarian and Cleric should throw up a big red flag that something is wrong. What is wrong is that your heavy armors are too low because you are following the PHB broken rules on them. Your Rogues does more damage than the other two PCs and has as good of AC as the two PCs that used feats to get there when he did not. You see nothing wrong with that? Here are the number on the die needed by same level foes (to hit level +5) with your Rogue, Barbarian/Cleric, and Paladin using core rules and using AV rules. I am assuming they get +1 better armor at levels 3, 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26: [code] 1 10 11 14 10 11 14 2 10 11 14 10 11 14 3 10 11 14 10 11 14 4 10 11 14 10 11 14 5 9 10 13 9 10 13 6 10 12 15 10 11 14 7 9 11 14 9 10 13 8 10 11 14 10 10 13 9 9 10 13 9 9 12 10 9 10 13 9 9 12 11 9 11 14 9 9 12 12 9 11 14 9 9 12 13 8 10 13 8 8 11 14 9 10 13 9 8 11 15 8 9 12 8 7 10 16 10 11 14 10 11 14 17 9 10 13 9 10 13 18 9 10 13 9 10 13 19 8 9 12 8 9 12 20 8 9 12 8 9 12 21 9 10 13 9 9 12 22 9 10 13 9 9 12 23 8 9 12 8 8 11 24 8 9 12 8 8 11 25 7 8 11 7 7 10 26 9 11 14 9 11 14 27 8 10 13 8 10 13 28 9 10 13 9 10 13 29 8 9 12 8 9 12 30 8 9 12 8 9 12 [/code] Although the Rogue was easier to hit at level one, he is actually harder to hit than the Cleric or Barbarian at levels 14 or 15 and often the same to hit due to the flaw in the math. In the first three columns, this is not the case. The better armor (i.e. heavy) is better. At levels 14 and 15 with core rules, Leather + Dex = Plate armor. WT? That's fixed in AV. [/QUOTE]

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