Masterwork from Adventurer's Vault: Help Me Grock It

[Felon]

In the PHB, there are masterwork versions of armor that become available at 16th level (or, in other words, for armors with at least a +4 enhancment bonus). It took a couple of readings to get what the designers ought to have come right out and said: "at higher levels, we're trying to ramp up players' armor classes, so this stuff is not really optional". So, every +4 chainmail should be made of forgemail and every +4 suit of leather should be feyleather. For all practical intents and purposes, the upgrade is a given.

I could live with characters getting an AC boost at the mid-paragon levels. But then Adventurer's Vault came out, and now we get light masterwork armors granting non-AC bonuses at 11th level, and heavy masterwork armor granting extra AC bonuses all the way down at 6th level. I let AV's Superior Weapons slide, even though they exacerbated the damage gap between weapon and implement attacks. Now, I've gotta contemplate whether these masterwork armors are patching something that's defective, or they're just power creep.

My chief concern is giving out AC boosts at those levels, because my 11th level PC's all have AC's between 25-27, and monsters of equivalent level already seem to have a sufficiently difficult time hitting them. So, it seems completely unnecessary and, unlike Superior Weapons, devoid of even a token cost.

Thus, I'm inclined to just giving the AV masterwork armors a thumbs-down. Thoughts?

 

[tiornys]

Let's compare light armor to heavy armor. We'll say Hide armor on a ranged Ranger vs. Scale armor on a Fighter. We'll assume 18 Dex on the Ranger. At level 1, they look like this:

10+Hide Armor + Dex mod: AC 17
10+Scale Armor: AC 17​

Now we'll fast forward a few levels, to level 8. The Ranger has bumped his Dex a couple of times, and both have picked up +2 armor.

14+Hide Armor+Dex mod+Enhancement: AC 24
14+Scale Armor+Enhancement: AC 23​

Fast forward again to level 12 (without the AV masterwork). Again, the Ranger has bumped his Dex a couple of times, each has +3 armor, and neither has taken their Armor Specialization feats:

16+Hide Armor+Dex mod+Enhancement: AC 28
16+Scale Armor+Enhancement: AC 26​

See the problem? This is part of what the Masterwork armor in the PHB is fixing. The Adventurer's Vault armors just smooth the curve so that Heavy Armor stays about equivalent with Light Armor throughout, instead of falling behind, catching up at level 16, falling behind again, and catching up again at level 26.

t~

 

[CapnZapp]

short version: this is stealth errata and not really optional (as shown above).

 

[keterys]

because my 11th level PC's all have AC's between 25-27, and monsters of equivalent level already seem to have a sufficiently difficult time hitting them.

Hmm, your attack bonuses should range between about +12 vs. AC (9th Brute) to +21 vs. AC (14th Soldier) under most circumstances, plus combat advantage a moderate amount of the time. You shouldn't be having too much trouble hitting.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hmm, your attack bonuses should range between about +12 vs. AC (9th Brute) to +21 vs. AC (14th Soldier) under most circumstances, plus combat advantage a moderate amount of the time. You shouldn't be having too much trouble hitting.

I almost never have lower level foes against my PCs. Going back to the same level question, +14 vs. AC (11th Brute) vs. AC 25 to 27 = 40% to 50% chance to hit and +18 vs. AC (11th Soldier) vs. AC 25 to 27 = 60% to 70% chance to hit. Higher level foes are even easier.

There are 3 monster roles at level +5, 2 monster roles at level +7, and only 1 monster role at level +3.

So average same level monster against average PC here would be a 55+% chance to hit, better than 50/50 without combat advantage.

 

[Felon]

Let's compare light armor to heavy armor. We'll say Hide armor on a ranged Ranger vs. Scale armor on a Fighter. We'll assume 18 Dex on the Ranger. At level 1, they look like this:

10+Hide Armor + Dex mod: AC 17
10+Scale Armor: AC 17​

Now we'll fast forward a few levels, to level 8. The Ranger has bumped his Dex a couple of times, and both have picked up +2 armor.

14+Hide Armor+Dex mod+Enhancement: AC 24
14+Scale Armor+Enhancement: AC 23​

Fast forward again to level 12 (without the AV masterwork). Again, the Ranger has bumped his Dex a couple of times, each has +3 armor, and neither has taken their Armor Specialization feats:

16+Hide Armor+Dex mod+Enhancement: AC 28
16+Scale Armor+Enhancement: AC 26​

See the problem?
t~

Hmmmmm........I do see a problem here, but it's with the math presented.

Comparing hide to scale is not an even comparison. Hide armor offers the best AC of the light armors. Plate offers the best AC of the heavy armors. There's the comparison. Of course, fighters don't have plate proficiency, but that's not the heavy armor's problem anymore than it's light armor's problem that the rogue doesn't have hide proficiency.

So, your 1st-level heavy armor guy straps on some plate and starts with 18 AC to the light armor guy's 17, and is actually ahead of the curve until 8th level. At 8th, the light armor guy has bumped his Dex (or Int in some outre scenario) to 20. They are even at 24 AC.

At 12th, you say the ranger has "bumped his Dex a couple of times", but he's only bumped it once more to 21. They're still even at 27 AC.

At 14th the light armor guy has bumped his Dex/Int up to pull ahead, but at that point level 16 armors are available, and thus so are masterwork armors.

Now, here's my 11th-level party:

Rogue: 20 Dex, +3 Leather = 25 AC
Barbarian: +3 Scale = 25 AC
Cleric: +3 Scale = 25 AC
Paladin: Plate +2 and shield = 27 AC

I see parity here.

Hmm, your attack bonuses should range between about +12 vs. AC (9th Brute) to +21 vs. AC (14th Soldier) under most circumstances, plus combat advantage a moderate amount of the time. You shouldn't be having too much trouble hitting.

I'm seeing mostly +15 and +16's from stuff of an even level. I actually try to refrain going much higher than level +1, because that ramps the grind with a lot of whiff factor.

 

[Elric]

Thus, I'm inclined to just giving the AV masterwork armors a thumbs-down. Thoughts?

There's no reason that Heavy Armors should scale so abruptly when you get to a +4 and +6 enchantment bonus, like they do with core-book Masterwork Heavy Armors. The AV and PH-II MW armors fix this problem. Otherwise, picking up a +4 suit of Heavy Armor is worth a marginal +4 AC bonus over +3 armor and the same happens again from +5 to +6 armor. As evidenced by the fact that some of the AV armors were included in PH-II, this is definitely errata in disguise.

If you assume that characters get a higher plus armor on 2/7 ending levels, then core-rules Heavy Armor users get additional bonuses above their level + enchantment at:
Level 17: +3
Level 27: +6

Meanwhile, Light Armor users who boost Dex/Int and start with an even stat get:
Level 8: +1
Level 14: +2
Level 17: +3
Level 21: +4
Level 27: +5
Level 28: +6

There's no reason why Heavy Armor should scale so abruptly and Light Armor should scale relatively smoothly.

 

[Felon]

There's no reason that Heavy Armors should scale so abruptly when you get to a +4 and +6 enchantment bonus, like they do with core-book Masterwork Heavy Armors. The AV and PH-II MW armors fix this problem.

So, introducing MW armor in the PHB created a mess by abruptly scaling AC's, and AV smooths out the mess by overboosting armor at lower levels. Really, I see your "abrupt-scaling" argument as more of an indictment against MW armor on the whole than it is an incentive for handing out AC bonuses earlier.

There's no reason why Heavy Armor should scale so abruptly and Light Armor should scale relatively smoothly.

You're helping to convince me there's no reason for MW armor. I was accepting them at 16th level because of concerns about light armor wearers pulling ahead by virtue of ability score improvement, but as you point out the bumps are excessive. Instead of bumping the base bonus of heavy armor by one point, they bump it by three. WotC are loather to nerf this stuff, so the best they can do is try to smooth it out.

 

[Elric]

So, introducing MW armor in the PHB created a mess by abruptly scaling AC's, and AV smooths out the mess by overboosting armor at lower levels. Really, I see your "abrupt-scaling" argument as more of an indictment against MW armor on the whole than it is an incentive for handing out AC bonuses earlier.

AC does not "over-scale" at low levels even with AV/PH-II MW heavy armor. Even with AV/PH-II MW heavy armors, if you assume the level 2/7 progression I do above, the only levels where PCs are ahead of monster's +1 per level to-hit scaling compared to level 1 is level 2 (+1 from enhancement and +1 from level). If you assume that PCs get higher pluses to armors at level 2 and then 6/11/16/21/26, PCs are still only ahead at levels 2 and 6. You can find tables of these results in many places on the forums.

You're helping to convince me there's no reason for MW armor. I was accepting them at 16th level because of concerns about light armor wearers pulling ahead by virtue of ability score improvement, but as you point out the bumps are excessive. Instead of bumping the base bonus of heavy armor by one point, they bump it by three. WotC are loather to nerf this stuff, so the best they can do is try to smooth it out.

There is a reason to MW armor; characters need the AC boost, particularly characters in heavy armor who don't spend stat boosts on Dex/Int. See, for example, the calculations here.

 

[KarinsDad]

Now, here's my 11th-level party:

Rogue: 20 Dex, +3 Leather = 25 AC
Barbarian: +3 Scale = 25 AC
Cleric: +3 Scale = 25 AC
Paladin: Plate +2 and shield = 27 AC

I see parity here.

I don't. I see that you are screwing your players whose PCs use heavy armor and rewarding the player of the Rogue.

With the AV / PHB II rules and assuming that you gave the Paladin the same +3 armor that you handed out to the other PCs, against average same level foes, this would become:

Rogue: 25 AC, foe hits on a 10 (55%)
Barbarian: 27 AC, foe hits on a 12 (45%)
Cleric: 27 AC, foe hits on a 12 (45%)
Paladin: 30 AC, foe hits on a 15 (30%)

Sure, the Barbarian and Cleric have a 45% chance to get hit. But both of them took a feat (two feats in the case of the Barbarian) so that they would not be at 50% against same level foes.

Sure, the Paladin is much harder to hit. He's supposed to be. He's a defender and will get attacked more than his allies on average. He's still going to get hit one attack in three. And, I bet his Reflex defense sucks.

And, the game is not designed for every encounter to be against same level foes. A standard encounter is same level or same level +1. Without even getting to a difficult encounter, this means that level +1 foes in a standard encounter would be:

Rogue: 25 AC, foe hits on a 9 (60%)
Barbarian: 27 AC, foe hits on a 11 (50%)
Cleric: 27 AC, foe hits on a 11 (50%)
Paladin: 30 AC, foe hits on a 14 (35%)

3 out of 4 members of this party get hit 50% or more of the time in this standard encounter. That's not enough for you?

If the Rogue took the Hide armor feat like the Cleric took the Scale armor feat, the Rogue would be better protected. His choice. If the Rogue took shield proficiency, he would also be better protected. He shouldn't have the same AC as his fellow PCs who used feats to do so.

But with the PHB (screwed up) heavy armor rules, the Barbarian and Cleric have the same chance of being hit as the Rogue, even though the Barbarian and Cleric took one or more feats. You are screwing your Barbarian and Cleric.

So, you are screwing 3 of your 4 players because 3 of 4 are wearing heavy armor.


Seriously. People have looked at the math very carefully. Not using the AV masterwork armor rules is going to screw some of your players. I doubt you will find many people here that agree with your POV.

And, the fact that your supposed to be squishy Rogue has the same AC as your Barbarian and Cleric should throw up a big red flag that something is wrong. What is wrong is that your heavy armors are too low because you are following the PHB broken rules on them. Your Rogues does more damage than the other two PCs and has as good of AC as the two PCs that used feats to get there when he did not.

You see nothing wrong with that?

Here are the number on the die needed by same level foes (to hit level +5) with your Rogue, Barbarian/Cleric, and Paladin using core rules and using AV rules. I am assuming they get +1 better armor at levels 3, 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26:

1   10	11	14	10	11	14
2   10	11	14	10	11	14
3   10	11	14	10	11	14
4   10	11	14	10	11	14
5   9	10	13	9	10	13
6   10	12	15	10	11	14
7   9	11	14	9	10	13
8   10	11	14	10	10	13
9   9	10	13	9	9	12
10  9	10	13	9	9	12
11  9	11	14	9	9	12
12  9	11	14	9	9	12
13  8	10	13	8	8	11
14  9	10	13	9	8	11
15  8	9	12	8	7	10
16  10	11	14	10	11	14
17  9	10	13	9	10	13
18  9	10	13	9	10	13
19  8	9	12	8	9	12
20  8	9	12	8	9	12
21  9	10	13	9	9	12
22  9	10	13	9	9	12
23  8	9	12	8	8	11
24  8	9	12	8	8	11
25  7	8	11	7	7	10
26  9	11	14	9	11	14
27  8	10	13	8	10	13
28  9	10	13	9	10	13
29  8	9	12	8	9	12
30  8	9	12	8	9	12

Although the Rogue was easier to hit at level one, he is actually harder to hit than the Cleric or Barbarian at levels 14 or 15 and often the same to hit due to the flaw in the math. In the first three columns, this is not the case. The better armor (i.e. heavy) is better.

At levels 14 and 15 with core rules, Leather + Dex = Plate armor. WT?

That's fixed in AV.