Morrus said:
Morrus!!! Your not supposed to promote someone elses mag. Now say your sorry and get something like this in Asgard.
Maximum Magecraft: corndog's Wizardry Workshop, ep. 1
- Thread starter corndog
- Start date
Morrus!!! Your not supposed to promote someone elses mag. Now say your sorry and get something like this in Asgard.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
I see the flavor you want to achieve, but I'm not sure that the feat, as you describe it, works well in the D20 rules. It makes multiclassing really weird.
Hmm -- here's a way you could achieve almost exactly the same effect. Instead of having the wizard give up proficiency with weapons, impose a -4 penalty when using any weapon, in exchange for a +3 bonus when using spells.
Since the penalty for attacking with a weapon that you're not proficient with is -4, this achieves almost the same thing.
The only difference is that you can't buy back proficiencies in weapons. But that should be okay, shouldn't it?
I'm still uncomfortable with this feat: D&D is never about forgetting what you've learned, and ruleswise a fighter1 who takes the next 19 levels in wizard and never uses a bardiche in that time will still remember perfectly well how to use a bardiche at 20th level.
If you want to achieve this effect, I almost think you'd be better off houseruling the wizard to be only proficient in staff and dagger, and giving them the +3 bonus with spell attacks. If they choose to MC, have it work as normal -- they're obviously not specializing in magic, in this case.
Daniel
Hmm -- here's a way you could achieve almost exactly the same effect. Instead of having the wizard give up proficiency with weapons, impose a -4 penalty when using any weapon, in exchange for a +3 bonus when using spells.
Since the penalty for attacking with a weapon that you're not proficient with is -4, this achieves almost the same thing.
The only difference is that you can't buy back proficiencies in weapons. But that should be okay, shouldn't it?
I'm still uncomfortable with this feat: D&D is never about forgetting what you've learned, and ruleswise a fighter1 who takes the next 19 levels in wizard and never uses a bardiche in that time will still remember perfectly well how to use a bardiche at 20th level.
If you want to achieve this effect, I almost think you'd be better off houseruling the wizard to be only proficient in staff and dagger, and giving them the +3 bonus with spell attacks. If they choose to MC, have it work as normal -- they're obviously not specializing in magic, in this case.
Daniel
Pielorinho said:
That could work, I think you nailed on the head. Like you pointed out, it achieves the effect I was looking for, while at the same time resolving any issues with multiclass, so I'll change the feats to read:
Precision Spell Targetting
You are adept at delivering touch spells, ranged touch and ranged spells to their targets
Prerequisite: Special! The only way to acquire this feat is to impose a voluntary restriction on the weapons your wizard or sorceror may use.
Effect: By limiting your weapon arsenal to only Daggers, Darts and Quarterstaves, and imposing a -4 penalty when using any other weapons, regardless of selections from any other classes, you gain a bonus of +3 on all checks and hit rolls required to 'aim' a touch or ranged touch spell.
In addition, it is more difficult for your targets to dodge your area of effect and simlar spells, resulting in a +3 modifier to the DC of any reflex save imposed by a spell you cast.
Although it is a bit sneaky, You may use the Exotic Weapon feat to buy back the use of any weapon you abandon to gain this feat.
Normal: You may use the weapons normally allowed to your class, and gain no added bonuses to your spellcasting effectiveness.
AND
Pinpoint Spell Targetting
In exchange for abandoning martial weapons pratice, you have gained an excellent talent for delivering your touch, ranged touch and ranged spells to their targets.
Prerequisite: As with Precision Spell Targetting, this feat may only be gained by sacrificing your proficiency in weapons normally allowed to your class. A wizard or sorceror selecting this feat is subject to a -4 penalty when using any weapon, regardless of selections from other classes, having devoted her practice to learning how to better target her spells.
Effect: As with the Precision Spell Targetting feat, except that the bonus to checks and DCs for the caster's spells increases to +6.
I chose to leave the "buy back" clause for Exotic Weapon in there. First off, it requires burning a valuable feat to regain proficiency in just one weapon, when you gave up all your weapons to get the spell bonuses. Second, it is forseeable that a player may have second thoughts down the road about their choice, especially if they come into possession of some cool magic weapon, so I think its acceptable to leave a back door clause in to allow them some leeway later on.
In my opinion those two feats are grossly unbalancing... I would have the requirement 3d6 sneak attack to the first one and disallow the other one. A wizard have more than enough options to increase spell DCs, and ranged touch attacks and touch attacks are not affected by armour modifiers to armour class.
Why don't stick to the usual +2 and forget the improvement?
Why don't stick to the usual +2 and forget the improvement?
Hail Corndog,
Your reasoning for taking the first level as a rogue makes a lot of sense, but why not just start as a multiclass rogue/wizard as per the rules in the DMG? Granted, you'd lose the sneak attack but in exchange you'd gain some basic wizard spells -- one of which can be mage armor... You'd still have all the skill points and the hitpoints of a rogue as well.
-Eraslin
Your reasoning for taking the first level as a rogue makes a lot of sense, but why not just start as a multiclass rogue/wizard as per the rules in the DMG? Granted, you'd lose the sneak attack but in exchange you'd gain some basic wizard spells -- one of which can be mage armor... You'd still have all the skill points and the hitpoints of a rogue as well.
-Eraslin
AHHHH!!!!! this tread has dropped from the first page!!
I love your Ideas corndog, wizards are my favorite class and this has improved my game by leaps and bounds, its a shame my DM makes you have in character reasons for all out of character desisions.
this post will also move this thread back up to the top of the list. I CAN'T WAIT for episode 2
I love your Ideas corndog, wizards are my favorite class and this has improved my game by leaps and bounds, its a shame my DM makes you have in character reasons for all out of character desisions.
this post will also move this thread back up to the top of the list. I CAN'T WAIT for episode 2
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Me too -- I'm eagerly awaiting Ep II of your series, and feel minorly bad about hijacking the thread with quibbles with the feats.
More, more!
Daniel
More, more!
Daniel
Humanophile
First Post
OK, I'll bite. Why rogue?
You'll have to burn through more points when you take a wizard level, and you just seem keen on Use Magic Device, which even a +10 doesn't make a sure thing (4 ranks, +4 Cha, +2 focus, and let's be honest about your odds of having an extra 18 for Cha). Very few rogue skills match up with wizard skills, and the ones I would pick are the sensory and stealth skills that tend to save your bacon when you need them.
I'd start out monk because it'd give you evasion (your soon-to-be d4 hit dice can't really stand up to many d6 fireballs and lightning bolts, this helps you avoid the brunt some of the time), a couple more hit points than a rogue, better save bonuses (save vs. death/incapitation is popular, especially with Fort. and Will saves. Monk boosts them, rogue doesn't), and more skill overlap. Plus, you'll have useful natural attacks that can be used with touch spells and can't be taken away (you know, when you don't have your spellbook and you're almost a commoner) and you won't have to prioritize Charisma.
I'd go human, like you, for the extra skill and feat, and prioritize my stats the same way you did, only I'd slide charisma all the way down to the bottom (we are min-maxing, remember?). Since you're bound to have at least 28 skill points now (4 as a monk, +1 for being human, +2 at least for your intelligence, all times 4), you're probably going to want to max out 7 skills. Concentration, spellcraft, and knowledge: arcana are all nice, as is alchemy maybe. So that's three or four skills down, two of which are in-class, after which I'd prioritize hide, spot, listen, and move silently. Cut alchemy unless you have a better intelligence bonus (you can always but either the items or the skill later), and you should be capable for the rest of the level. As for feats, extend spell is a gem, and then depending on your character either a spell focus feat or improved initative. Improved familiar needs to wait for higher level, BTW, and I'd either wait or else have a toad until then.
You'll have to burn through more points when you take a wizard level, and you just seem keen on Use Magic Device, which even a +10 doesn't make a sure thing (4 ranks, +4 Cha, +2 focus, and let's be honest about your odds of having an extra 18 for Cha). Very few rogue skills match up with wizard skills, and the ones I would pick are the sensory and stealth skills that tend to save your bacon when you need them.
I'd start out monk because it'd give you evasion (your soon-to-be d4 hit dice can't really stand up to many d6 fireballs and lightning bolts, this helps you avoid the brunt some of the time), a couple more hit points than a rogue, better save bonuses (save vs. death/incapitation is popular, especially with Fort. and Will saves. Monk boosts them, rogue doesn't), and more skill overlap. Plus, you'll have useful natural attacks that can be used with touch spells and can't be taken away (you know, when you don't have your spellbook and you're almost a commoner) and you won't have to prioritize Charisma.
I'd go human, like you, for the extra skill and feat, and prioritize my stats the same way you did, only I'd slide charisma all the way down to the bottom (we are min-maxing, remember?). Since you're bound to have at least 28 skill points now (4 as a monk, +1 for being human, +2 at least for your intelligence, all times 4), you're probably going to want to max out 7 skills. Concentration, spellcraft, and knowledge: arcana are all nice, as is alchemy maybe. So that's three or four skills down, two of which are in-class, after which I'd prioritize hide, spot, listen, and move silently. Cut alchemy unless you have a better intelligence bonus (you can always but either the items or the skill later), and you should be capable for the rest of the level. As for feats, extend spell is a gem, and then depending on your character either a spell focus feat or improved initative. Improved familiar needs to wait for higher level, BTW, and I'd either wait or else have a toad until then.
Eosin the Red
First Post
The level of Monk is sweet and can easily fit into a "scholarly mage" concept (monks started as scribes). I also like the Rogue route.
The Monk allows you to move wisdom up a notch on the priority scale to 3rd place. That might net you a +1 or more to will saves and Armor Class. The Monks higher saves will be a net +
The only drawback is the CC skills and the reduced BAB.
The Monk allows you to move wisdom up a notch on the priority scale to 3rd place. That might net you a +1 or more to will saves and Armor Class. The Monks higher saves will be a net +
The only drawback is the CC skills and the reduced BAB.
I dont like the idea of the starting level in rogue. The extra hp are nice, so the lot of skill points, but you can have max 4 ranks in a skill at level 1.
The idea of a level in rogue or two is not bad, but I´ll start as wizard and take that level later to buy skills like diplomacy, bluff or sense motive. Supposing a Int of 18 you can get (as human) 13 skills points as rogue. Addind the rogue level at level 3 or 4 you can have some serious social skills, or buy hide and move silently.
And taking quicken spell at level 1... well, it you´r going to play the wizard from level 1, you´ll have to play with a useless feat for a long time. (And why a rogue knows how to quicken spells, anyway?)
The idea of a level in rogue or two is not bad, but I´ll start as wizard and take that level later to buy skills like diplomacy, bluff or sense motive. Supposing a Int of 18 you can get (as human) 13 skills points as rogue. Addind the rogue level at level 3 or 4 you can have some serious social skills, or buy hide and move silently.
And taking quicken spell at level 1... well, it you´r going to play the wizard from level 1, you´ll have to play with a useless feat for a long time. (And why a rogue knows how to quicken spells, anyway?)
