May Rules Update

[DracoSuave]

I don't think the build option has been removed from the game in any way. Throw and Stab remains quite strong. Marauder's Rush remains a powerful base for a charging ranger build. I don't see how the inability to combine those elements, though, prevents anyone from using them individually.

I didn't say the powers. I was refering to the Marauder build option, which was 'Take power that lets you charge, and take power that can be used on charge.' It's not that these are two powers that accidentally combined like peanut butter and chocolate... but more like they were presented in a manufactured Reese's Cup form, advertising that you have them both and they both taste delicious.

It was finally a build where Twin Strike wasn't needed, you could have two powers that, individually, were decent utility, but together were competitive damage. It was a much needed breath of fresh air.

Now Rangers go 'Throw and Stab, and Twin-Strike' or 'Marauder's Rush, and Twin-Strike', and few go with the actually build in the book for them. Thusly bringing Rangers back into the 'most seriously boring class in the game' catagory.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Now Rangers go 'Throw and Stab, and Twin-Strike' or 'Marauder's Rush, and Twin-Strike', and few go with the actually build in the book for them. Thusly bringing Rangers back into the 'most seriously boring class in the game' catagory.

If people are only willing to play the most optimal stuff, then I have no pity for their being bored. The other options ARE there, whether they are the best or not.

 

[DracoSuave]

If people are only willing to play the most optimal stuff, then I have no pity for their being bored. The other options ARE there, whether they are the best or not.

It's not a matter of being optimal, Twin-Strike is just too overshadowing to make picking other at-wills worth the utility, and the utility of those at-wills is too underwhelming to take more than one of them.

Let's face it, you ARE a striker, so doing pin-point damage IS part of your duty.

 

[firesnakearies]

But you could do more damage with Throw and Stab (the new version) than Twin Strike, AND get a whole free move out of it.

It's still an amazingly good power, if a bit more restrictive in how you use it.

With all of the stuff you could stack onto charging, and a very high Strength and Wisdom, I'd bet you could do more damage with Marauder's Rush than Twin Strike, too. And get movement as part of the bargain.

Twin Strike is just the easiest way to do good damage, requiring the least amount of tactics to employ effectively. It's not necessarily better than either of those other two, and at least some of the time, could be considered worse.

 

[MrMyth]

It's not a matter of being optimal, Twin-Strike is just too overshadowing to make picking other at-wills worth the utility, and the utility of those at-wills is too underwhelming to take more than one of them.

Let's face it, you ARE a striker, so doing pin-point damage IS part of your duty.

Throw and Stab is comparable with Twin Strike, especially for a build designed around it. I'd say that you could certainly take it, along with Marauder's Rush, without feeling the loss of Twin Strike.

Especially since an optimized build for this would likely involve some form of throwing Fullblade or the like, rendering Twin Strike not an option anyway.

The build remains solid, and Throw and Stab remains useful. No need for Twin Strike to even enter the picture.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

disagreed...

twinstrike doesn´t give any utility at all, demands two high enchanted weapons and doesn´t do a lot more damage if you are not crit fishing...

shift 2 at will seems a lot better to me even if you don´t use the attack mode at all...

the hole is fixed, live with it...

@marauders rush and throw and stab:
the combo was a bit too obvious... and not a bit better than twin strike + anything else...

 

[bganon]

[Edit: totally ninja'd, was responding to DracoSuave]

I think you underestimate how good Marauder's Rush can still be in a charge build. Simply taking Powerful Charge and grabbing a Horned Helm can push Marauder's Rush DPR quite high, well above vanilla Twin Strike (dunno about super-optimized Twin Strike, but I bet it's still competitive).

Pre-errata, the Throw and Stab+Marauder's Rush combo was strictly better than Twin Strike in almost every way. It was basically two Str-based attacks, total damage 1[W] "offhand" + 1[W]+Str+Wis "main hand", plus it enabled full charge-build optimization. The only disadvantage is you don't get such great damage dice off the thrown part, but Ranger powers are basically all about static bonuses anyway. Now it's been nerfed to 1[W] "offhand" + 1[W]+Str "main hand" vs a different target... that's still good.

I think plenty of Marauder-Style Rangers will still want to take both Throw and Stab and Marauder's Rush. Also, both enable you to get the Running Attack bonus, which Twin Strike doesn't. They're still good powers.

 

[DracoSuave]

disagreed...

twinstrike doesn´t give any utility at all, demands two high enchanted weapons and doesn´t do a lot more damage if you are not crit fishing...

Or use any feat or item that increases damage rolls.

Weapon Focus is double strength. Iron Armbands of Power double their effectiveness. And it inherently multiplies your DPR contribution from Hunter's Quarry by 1.5 by dint of being able to apply it more often.

Twin-Strike is not merely a crit-fisher. That's just -one- application of it.

 

[kaomera]

Throw & Stab + Marauder's Rush was way too obvious of a combo, because they where specifically supposed to compliment one-another. That was to be the basis of the Marauder build, now you have Throw & Stab and something else, and the power named after the build no longer even has a real place in it. Actually, I was almost worried that the "solution" to one of the Ranger's at-wills being nearly a fixed value was going to be a build where both the at-wills where fixed, so at least that's cleared up...

Throw & Stab seems to be a good way of taking the traditionally very focused-firing Ranger and spreading out the damage, if that's something you want to do. The only way I can see that working out really well is if you're handing out conditions somehow... Pair it with Hit & Run and you can move out to Throw & Stab two more targets...

Marauder's Rush also seems like it could pair well with Hit & Run, for a charging build. This actually seems like it could work as a two-hander build. (Maybe?) Both of these options seem like they're more Barbarian than Ranger, actually...

Of course, either of these at-wills can also compliment Twin Strike, being good ways to reach your target.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Or use any feat or item that increases damage rolls.

Weapon Focus is double strength. Iron Armbands of Power double their effectiveness. And it inherently multiplies your DPR contribution from Hunter's Quarry by 1.5 by dint of being able to apply it more often.

Twin-Strike is not merely a crit-fisher. That's just -one- application of it.

yeah, but in the context of rogue daggermaster it is.

Also you may not forget that careful attack gives a +2 bonus to attack AND strength to damage. So the gap is becoming lower. Also you only need one top weapon and you may use a parrying dagger in the off hand to increase your defenses.

rogues have an attack that is against reflex which may be even better than a +2 bonus to hit. Twin strike is very good, but it makes you very item (and feat) dependant.