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Message: <blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 9370867" data-attributes="member: 6877472">Yeah basically, if you set DC's based on expecting non-Rogues to be able to succeed, the Rogue's benefits trivialize most ability checks.  If you set DC's based on only expecting Rogues to be able to succeed, then Rogues become a must-have, which is contrary to 5e's design, which expects almost any party configuration to be able to equally contribute, so nobody ever feels forced to play a given class (how well 5e meets that design goal I won't comment on at the moment).Starfinder ran into this very problem with their Operative class- having an Operative in the party mostly made anyone else using skills kind of irrelevant.  You ask for a DC 15 check and this guy is like "uh...35.  No, 36" (some hyperbole, but not much).I mean, think about this.  By Tier 3, a Rogue can potentially have a skill bonus of +13 and Reliable Talent says they can't possibly roll less than a 23.  I once played a Rogue with Perception Expertise who owned a Robe of Eyes in AL, and the DM just kind of threw up his hands any time there was a hidden thing or enemies who were intended to ambush the party.  An encounter with invisible Duergar assassins got turned inside out.My friend was tellling me about a character in Critical Role who took Observant and had a passive Perception in the 30's (I don't know how accurate this is, but it's not impossible to do).You can suddenly find entire sections of the game removed from most play if you don't scale the game to the Rogue's level.  But rather than step back from that ledge, many other classes are purportedly being buffed to be able to occasionally reach these heights in 2024.Expertise is simply put, the bane of the skill system.  The Rogue really shouldn't have "skill use" as their hat, if that means they are "so good at skills it's basically their system, and other classes are sometimes allowed to play too".What I suggest is that the Rogue be allowed to do more with skills than other classes.  Using Stealth to hide where others can't, being able to climb along ceilings, and so on.  We see a little of this with the Thief, who can, for example make skill checks in record time, like opening a lock or disabling a trap with a bonus action (!), which runs right into the DM's declaration of how long it takes to perform said actions (forcing them to either allow the Rogue superhuman speed or nerf the Thief's ability).Also, there should be more combat uses of skills, so that the Rogue has other interesting things to do than shoot a crossbow. They should be proficient in all manner of thrown weapons like acid, oil, holy water.  Able to spread caltrops and spill marbles more efficiently.  Handing out potions with bonus actions!  Actually using and setting traps!  Their stealth shouldn't be trivialized by some special sense, allowing them to actually skulk about (and definitely shouldn't be trivialized by pass without trace).  Rogues should be able to hide in plain sight, throw flash powder, and not need a ring of invisibility to actually function effectively.The Rogue will get some neat things to do with their Sneak Attack dice in 2024, but as long as the most effective status effect is dead, and thus making damage king, the Rogue is going to be in a rough position if they aren't main damage dealers.</blockquote>

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