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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9373320" data-attributes="member: 6801228">And how am I being generous? The DC as set by the rules? The invisible condition as set by the rules? The fact that stealth does not break as long as they activate Supreme Sneak, as the rules state? Yes, I am assuming that in a solo, 1v1 fight which a rogue should never be in, that they are able to utilize their skills at stealth and fight in the only way rogues have been able to 1v1 opponents since the PHB in 2014. I won't deny that a rogue locked in a featureless room is going to struggle much harder against a powerful opponent. That has always been true. It just wasn't an expectation before that Rogues had to solo Adult Red Dragons to be considered a viable class.And here you are doing the same thing again. Monks are better skirmishers? Okay, they don't have the rogues skills. Fighters and Barbarians got better skills? Okay, good, they needed it. They aren't skirmishers with high mobility. Why should the rogue be a the best DPR, Defense, Mobility AND Utility class in the game? And I have no idea why you think familiars are more ubiquitous. Access to Find Familiar has not changed a single bit.Rogue DPR has not dropped. In fact, I distinctly remember one poster during UA6 railing and ranting that because of disarm and trip, the rogue was not the most OP class in the game, guaranteed to ruin the game and break every single combat from level 5 until level 20. And nothing has changed since then for the rogue. In fact, it is undeniable that the Rogue in 2024 will be much stronger than it was in 2014.What has changed? Weirdly, not much. The Barbarian's improved skills? UA 5. So before the Rogue. So the only things that changed are1) Fighter's got Tactical Mind, allowing them to trade healing for rolling 1d10 on a failed check. This is very nice for the fighter, giving them an effective +5 when they fail a skill. This can be used once per short rest without impacting them, and if used on something in the dungeon DOES effectively cost them healing and survivability. At the level 11 we have been talking about, it is a trade of 16 hp for turning a failure into a success. And it is only better than the rogue's skills until they get reliable talent 2) Monks got good. And frankly, considering that second point is the one everyone keeps returning to, it seems the entire problem is that monks are now good enough to be a viable option. Maybe you think they are too good, absolutely broken... but it is really weird that we are essentially saying "Monks got good... so Rogues must be EVEN BETTER!!" Rogue DPR has always been a little low, and frankly with how Sneak Attack works, giving them an extra attack won't raise it much. Not with all their ways to get advantage and dual-wielding. Better AC? I've had Rogue off-tanks, they do a fine job with surviving, usually by not being the target of attacks in the first place. Increase sneak attack even more or give them a reaction attack? Okay the second one would be more powerful, and increase their damage... but it wouldn't let them solo an Adult Red Dragon who cancels their stealth. In fact, NONE of these changes would actually make them capable of the standard you are setting. And frankly, to prevent power creep? I'm not going to immediately start demanding Rogues get better skills, AC and damage just because we fixed problems with two of the other classes. It isn't needed.</blockquote>

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