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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9374434" data-attributes="member: 6801228">You make a lot of assumptions about me and blah blah blah boring system math. I've done the math, perhaps the issue is that I've done the math with a different baseline? Because I won't argue that PAM+GWM fighter is going to blow rogue damage out of the water, and rogues don't have a similar damage increasing combo. But we could crunch the numbers for longbow, or longsword and shield, or just GWM and the Rogue is not doing nearly as poorly. Yes, making a single shot that everything rides on hurts, and in that respect, the DPR can be increased with extra attack by simply making it more likely the rogue will land a hit. But that doesn't raise their ceiling by an appreciable amount, it just makes their average better. I do want to note as well, this isn't purely martial with the -5/+10 you are talking about, but ALSO adding "advantage from casters". Perhaps you add that same advantage to rogues? I don't know, your post is unclear. But unlike the martials who needs the casters, Rogues can consistently generate their own advantage. Additionally, the GWM feat was balanced out. It now doesn't spike as high with advantage and is more reliable without it. This will lower the martial damage and make the rogue better by comparison.Also, I note one of your complaints is Reliable talent coming online too late. They fixed that. It is supposed to come on by level 7 now, more in line with people's play experiences.So, if we take some of these numbers... let's say level 11, max ability score, greatsword fighter, PAM fighter, and Rogue with a single d8 weapon. Baseline 65% to hit, adv gets 87.75%.2014 Greatsword ~ 41.42 w/adv, 26.4 w/o adv2014 PAM ~ 49.57 w/adv, 31.6 w/o adv2014 Rogue ~ 26.76 w/adv, 19.82 w/o adv 2024 Greatsword ~ 35.1 w/adv, 26 w/o adv2024 PAM ~ 37.73 w/adv, 27.95 w/o adv2024 Rogue ~ 26.76 w/adv, 19.82 w/o advAnd we can demonstrate that the gap HAS SHRUNK. Now, I'm not going to claim my math is perfect. I didn't account for criticals, and maybe you disagree with my base numbers, but the gap between the two most damaging fighter builds, at the height of their power and a level that "According survery made by DNDBeyond, almost no[ne]" campaigns reach is SMALLER in 2024. Not bigger. Now, we could argue that the Rogues should get even more, that their new abilities in battlefield control are not good enough, that a rogue with no feats supporting their damage should do MORE damage than a fighter with two feats increasing their damage... but the gap has already been closed by a significant degree, by using that boring blah blah blah math you seem to think I hate.</blockquote>

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