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Message: <blockquote data-quote="rmcoen" data-source="post: 9374621" data-attributes="member: 6692404">Cycling back to the OP and Uncanny Dodging out of the maths discussion...A few things have stuck out at me several times through these 10 pages.  First, most "take advantage of Rogue abilities" examples seem to be "give the rogue a bow" / "be a sniper".  Second, Expertise is either meaningless (+2 isn't enough compared to a good d20 roll), or irrelevant (can't gatekeep behind needing a Rogue in the party), or duplicated (bard also has the Expertise, or the Ranger does, or the Fighter uses Tactical Mind that one time anyone cares).  Third, rogues are at best second-best at everything - but many players enjoy their time playing rogues.I think the 1st item is an issue.  Rogues should contribute meaningfully with a set of abilities that don't over-incentivize a single weapon type.  We don't require someone to be a Rogue in order to use daggers, or be a Ranger to be an archer; likewise a Rogue shouldn't have to use "TWF shortswords" or "duh, bows!" to be effective.I think the 2nd item is really the core issue.  Most people here agree the Rogue's conceptual niche is/was the skill monkey.  But with the aforementioned skill issues in play, the niche isn't a niche.  If degrees of success mattered, then maybe an extra +2 to +4 would be more impactful; or if the dice being used were different (multiple dice - even 2d10 instead of 1d20 can make extra bonuses vastly more interesting).  For example, replace skill check d20s with 3d6.  Now generally only a skilled person can achieve a 20+ at all.  Or, like Pathfinder, gatekeep certain results behind skill level not total bonus.  I love this, and try to soft-implement it in all my games.  The +4 DEX Fighter is good at hiding behind walls (+4 to Stealth checks, untrained), but even the most novice Rogue (+0 DEX, +1 skill, TRAINED) is better at tailing someone (Stealth check, MUST BE TRAINED or better).  But again -- we (5e) are trying not to penalize the party for not having a specific class...... my answer to that is "wtf not?"  Someone else used the example "you can't put a main objective behind an obstacle that requires a specific cleric spell to be cast"... to which I respond "Why not?  You're stuck - go back to town and hire a cleric!  Or buy a scroll.  Or come up with some other creative solution."  So if the rogue has more skills, and is better at them, then having one in the party minimizes your need to go back and acquire the missing "key".I really liked D&D's only attempt at this in a previous edition: anyone can (try to) disarm a mundane trap, but you need a Rogue to disarm a magical one.  [Even then, along comes the wizard with dispel magic.]Making level of skill and value of bonus would go miles towards putting the Rogue back into the niche.  Even if the bard has the same Expertise, the Rogue's class abilities should make the skills better in her hands.  Even if the wizard is using knock and invisibility, the Rogue's class abilities should make her lockpicks and stealth better.(I also loved the idea to give the rogue more ways to apply their skills in combat.  I'd caution against the dangerous Battlemaster-style 5e mindset ["Since Trip is a battlemaster ability, I guess you can't trip without being a battlemaster!"]  But I'd love to see combat tricks and techniques that take their out-of-combat skill and apply it creatively in combat.  And yes, the 5e subclasses do this a little, but more can be done in this area.  Laserllama's Maneuvers for martials, or Pathfinder's feint and demoralize actions, players just asking to errol-flynn-chandelier-ride across the field... all good starts.)The third point: second at everything, and yet, somehow, fun to play.  I just responded to the Gish thread, where I said "I'm fine being +5 at this, and +5 at that, where the specialist in each is +7", because I have fun being able to do both.  Can it be grating to never be the best?  Yes.  [Someone earlier mentioned that all other classes have that moment where they an go/be OP.]  Can you have fun being part of everything, because you have something to contribute all the time? Yes!And all maths aside.... the glory of a Critical Hit with a Sneak Attack (depending on the rules are your table)... That's the moment the rogue player feels his 15 seconds of fame.  It doesn't matter that the Fighter is doing 30 damage every round and the rogue is doing 11.5 at that one sweet moment when the rogue player delivers the 60-pt critical hit and kills the BBEG before it can run/heal/hide!</blockquote>

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