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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9375955" data-attributes="member: 87792">Come back with those goalposts. Who is asking for the rogue to be a "fighter substitution". Other than straw-people.The rogue has always been a high damage mobile glass cannon. If the rogue tried fighting as a knight they wouldn't be fighting as a rogue. You are arguing against a strawman.A backstabbing rogue out damaged a fighter in 1e and frequently even 2e. A flanking rogue wasn't limited to sneak attack being 1/round or 1/turn in 3.x; multi-sneak attacking rogues were an easy way to get high damage. And there were good reasons rogues were dual wielders of choice.Rogues have always been strikers and able to bring the damage when able to behave like rogues.5e is the only version of D&D where this is in question. Other than in oD&D, 1e, 3.0, 3.5, and 4e when the fighters are built like tanks and the rogues are able to do rogue things.The only edition where rogues when able to do rogue things didn't handily out damage tank-specced fighters (as opposed to damage specced fighters) was 2e where Weapon Mastery was overturned and doing rogue things was harder even than 1e due to subtle nerfs. The 2e rogue was in a far worse place than the 5e monk and probably even than the 3.0 monk. While the 1e monk was just a 1e rogue 5e however has two weird things that to me seriously undermine the long term feels:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Ultra-tough rogues thanks to Uncanny Dodge</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Rogues who take a minimum of both risk and effort to do rogue things (you just need one ally next to the foe)</li> </ol>What I want to feel as a rogue is that I'm dancing on the edge. As in almost every edition I am very effective at taking out foes - but to do it I'm taking risks and outthinking the foe. The 4e rogue gave me that in spades (including the skill focus) but the 5e rogue is too tough and too easy to get their advantages with.The platonic ideal of a rogue to me is Justice League Batman - seriously overmatched and can barely take a slap from most Justice League foes, but incredibly smart and dangerous, operating from the shadows, and when he strikes it's a game changer.If only skills were worth more...If only skills options were worth anything compared to spells.</blockquote>

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