Mearls: Abilities as the core?

[MENTION=3867]Dragonhelm[/MENTION], this is what I thought when I read it as well. C&C keeps things pretty simple.
I'm pretty into the idea of dialing the complexity up and down in the same system, which is a theme Mearls keeps mentioning. For instance, the next campaign I run will use some simple skirmish rules I came up with for incidental encounters. My rules attempt to preserve the resource/power management of 4e without using a battle map, and create quicker combats. Set piece encounters would use standard rules. Same character sheets.
 

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No, the interesting question is can you build #1 so that the math works, and the game works, if that is all you use--while at the same time having options that work similar to #2, without redoing the math?

I'm not sure if that can be done or not. But it is an interesting question, both from a game design and a business case sense. :D

That's exactly the question I meant to put forward earlier, or rather, whether 4e could be retroactively changed to work that way.

If it's possible, there could be a Basic D&D 4e book (or game set) that presented a simplified version of the game that could still be used with other 4e material (maybe not perfectly, but well enough with some general guidelines).

You'd have to crack the numbers, but cutting out skills or defenses wouldn't seem very hard to do. Skills are already categorized by the core abilities and you change the inner math to compensate for the lack of skill modifiers. I think the main problem would be stuff like combat advantage and healing surges.

Is there something major I'm missing?
 

Having "complexity you can dial up or down" is a nice, cuddly concept and sounds luscious - but I think it's actually a honey trap if you value balance.

Rules with a myriad "optional" components are pretty much impossible to balance with any arbitrary selection of components selected. In practice, the best you will get is a balanced "simple" system and a tranche of 'complications' that, if you add them all, will also be coherent and balanced. Adding only part of the 'complication' set will just give an unbalanced, lopsided mess. At this point, it seems to me that you have two separate games - albeit using the same core mechanical element(s), so why not just treat them as such?
 

I like generally where Mike is going with these articles.

AFAIC, these are all a precursor to the next edition as he deconstructs D&D to find out exactly what it is in it's base form. With the less than hoped for sales & appeal of 4E, and already 2 "versions" out there in core & essentials, I just cannot see any (sane) company putting out yet another version of the same rule-set, and confusing the bejeesus out of even more people about which 4E products to buy.

Of course we know WOTC is not quite sane and has not been for about 8 years now :D

Yep... I'm calling "new edition announcement" at GenCon :D
 

Is there something major I'm missing?

Scope of abilities/skills/powers etc. (There may be more, but scope is definitely an issue to solve.)

For sake of argument, in the simple version, say that Cha covers all the social skills, Dex covers all the sneaking and lockpicking, etc. (I know there are holes there. Work with me, and assume they are handled well enough. ;)).

Then you layer the skills on top of this as an option. In the traditional model, you've got to divide scope into smaller pieces. This can, of course, be done well enough to get by, if you don't look at it very close. But you will make compromises. The problem is, in such a system, you want multiple options. And ideally, you want people to pick some options without prerequisites. (A handful may have prerequisites, again for those inevitable compromises, but most of them should not.) If people are going to the trouble to layer complexity on top of a base system, they want to layer their preferred complexity, not yours.

Hero System and GURPs are two ways out of this--but both are built on the idea that the options are all there, and you limit yourself to the ones that matter. There isn't really a "simple" system that is playable by itself. (Actually there is, but it isn't replicated in print--not even in the "lite" versions of both rules. The core is simpler than is printed. There was discussion between Hero 4th and 5th editions of building on this version, and some people suggested that such a Hero would be built on no more than 4 or 5 effects.)

Moreover, if scope is addressed in this way, you radically compromise your ability to convey the mechanics of source material and adventures.

My theory--utterly untested by professional game designers thus far, at least in public :p--is that the way out of this is through multiple dimensions of character abilities affecting task or conflict resolution, but not as derived abilities. It is the derived part that causes the design to either screw up the scope or screw up the math.

For example, go back to Charisma as social again, as base. Instead of skills dividing this up, or feats adding on, or whatever--you always use Charisma for the base roll--no matter how many options you use. If you are using the simple version, then that roll is it--much like skill rolls are now. If you are using skills or feats or both, then those things add different mechanics that complicate the resolution, but not the roll.

Perhaps skills are focused on addressing sim issues. So if you use the skill option, you are explicitly invoking sim. Skills becomes things you train to do things that not everyone can do, still using your base Cha. "Diplomats" use charisma to negotiate when formal language and protocols are required. Maybe feats are about changing the grounds of the rolls by situation. If you are a "fast talker", you can use Cha rolls faster than normal. (You could just as easily do this the other way around, where the feat "Diplomat" handled special sim cases and the skill Fast Talking modified some situations. It might even be better than the first way, depending on the mechanics.)

In such a model, "races" should be largely replaced by "culture" as a mechanically significant dimension. Being a dwarf doesn't mean much, except perhaps for a few racial benefits that are largely static. Being a dwarf raised under the Granite Mountains, as part of the stonemasons guild, however, exerts some mechanically meaningful heft.

I quite happily admit that this is all mostly theoretical, beyond some practical, mostly failed, home brew system work I've been flirting with for several years now. But I don't see any other way out of the scope issue. :D
 

It could be something like:

Simple Version: Charisma + 1/2 level

Complicated Version: Charisma + skill points (where a character gets X skill points per level to distribute as they wish).

Somewhat similar to the way "taking 10" eliminates the die roll to simplify situations.
 

Minimalism: Relationship maps are key. Not just PCs to NPCs, but everything in the multiverse.

Most folks think of the spatial map. "Where is the PC at this moment in time?" Items come up a close second. "What items are the PCs carrying?" However, all too often these items are not tracked spatially when they are not on a player character. Just as often is the tracking of NPCs when they are not within sensory range. Five orcs are in room 31b, forever?

Relationship maps not based upon space and time are just as important. Who do the PCs know? What is the state of their relationship with these NPCs? What have the PCs done over the history of the campaign? What about prior to it in their backgrounds?

The same importance is placed upon everyone and everything else within reach in the game. Who do the NPCs know? What is the state of their relationships with other NPCs? What is their history?

Similarly items have history too. When where they created? What is their history? Who knows about them? How are they perceived?

It may seem daunting at first, but the process is a slow build. The PCs don't adventure through every element within the universe in one session. There is only so much accessible for them to explore. Therefore, just as the player's experience grows, so too does the world his or her PC is within. Keep mapping out ahead of the party, with each and every map, and any DM will do fine.
 

Having "complexity you can dial up or down" is a nice, cuddly concept and sounds luscious - but I think it's actually a honey trap if you value balance.

Rules with a myriad "optional" components are pretty much impossible to balance with any arbitrary selection of components selected. In practice, the best you will get is a balanced "simple" system and a tranche of 'complications' that, if you add them all, will also be coherent and balanced. Adding only part of the 'complication' set will just give an unbalanced, lopsided mess. At this point, it seems to me that you have two separate games - albeit using the same core mechanical element(s), so why not just treat them as such?

That's true if there are many interacting complications, but less of a problem if you silo the levels of complexity. For example, you could have a game that had a simple no-minis combat system where the PCs chose from a sub-set of the total powers available to them in the more complicated tactical combat system. The remaining complexity choices could be in separate non-combat silos where GMs select the collection of abilities that are relevant and appropriate to their game and players choose from the game-appropriate list.

-KS
 

You know, I think part of the angst (all sides and in between) going on right now is that game design is finally moving firmly into the realm of mature design. That means that some parts of the functioning thing are, for most practical purposes, opaque to the user. At its far end, you get the #2 pencil--usable by a mature 4 year old, but unmakeable by any single being on the planet. (We are a long way from that. We've just finally started down that road. :p)

It is the difference between, say, a 1967 Mustang or early '70 VW Beetle versus any modern car. Someone interested in motors and willing to work could pretty much maintain about everything in one of those early version that they could physically handle. Lifting the engine out might for a complete rebuild might have pushed it, but I'm sure a few managed even that. Nowadays, you've practically got to be a specialist, and even so, there are some pieces that you'd really rather not touch.

And in not a few game systems for a long time, being willing to get under the hood was more or less the price required to participate, in some ways. Unless you wanted your game to spend a lot of times on blocks, out in front of your house ... (oops, analogy started to run away with me.)

There were people who didn't like Armor as AC, from the very beginning. There still are. But there are very few that play D&D for any length of time, think about it some, but still don't understand why it is the way it is. And most of them are bloody obtuse. :lol:

We are starting to hit an era of design where you can use something without understanding it, and it will just work. The huge problem, of course, is that then when it breaks, you'll have to spend that much more time understanding it to get it fixed--or you'll have to get someone else to fix it for you.
 

Despite that, I still think it is a bit short sighted. His proposal would certainly streamline the character sheet but at the expense of speed of play. If you only have the six stats and then powers/feats provide all modifiers, that means you have to search your sheet every time and add all the little odds-and-ends to calculate your score. Eventually, some player is going to realize that instead of calculating his score against attacks by adding his Dexterity + his ineffable dodge ability + his shield, he should just write it down on his sheet... maybe call it armor class. The reason we "bring in sub contractors" is because they come up often enough that it is worth putting them on salary.
When he mentioned "sub-contractor" mechanics, my understanding was that he was talking about different ways to model the same thing. Your CON is a measure of your toughness. Your saving throws/Fort defense are a completely different measure of your toughness, which are possibly influenced by your CON, but have separate mechanics and separate ways to boost them.

To me, the best example of this is avoidance mechanics in 3e. You had your AC, your touch AC, your AC vs incorporeal attacks, your Reflex save, and maybe a miss chance from displacement/blur/etc. You can take a feat or equip a magic item to improve a subset of the above, but that has no affect the others. As I read him, Mearls is saying, why have all of these similar but separate mechanics for what is essentially the same thing?
 

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