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Mearls: Augmenting the core

As a community I think we might want to mention whether or not a working system as mentioned in the article appeals to each of us. Sure there are concerns about its viability, but what are folks enthusiasm towards a functioning game as the one described?
I actually said I hoped for such a toolset a few weeks ago, in response to an earlier article. I'd have linked the rules add-ons to settings and tones (so there'd be a horror setting and rules, a sword and sorcery setting and rules, a fairy tale setting and rules, etc.). I think this sounds great. The real question, to me, is how stripped-down the core will be. Will it really work with other versions of the game, and thus allow players of older editions to pick up 5E modules with little problem?
 
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If, on the other hand, they are concentrating on the situation as described by the GM, the play mat and figures, and the game rules and considering how best their character can make a decisive play - a 'coup d'oeil' - then that is gamist play, whether the game action is combat or some other challenge, task or obstacle.

What I desire of this specific game system, therefore, is a game that supports the focus on the 'coup d'oeil', not a game that focusses on combat, or on non-combat, or any other (from my perspective) ephemeral aspect of style or genre.

I didn't know what a 'coup d'oeil' was so I looked it up: 'coup d'oeil' and decided you had it slightly wrong too. :heh:

The coup d'oeil is the abilty to see the decisive play rather than the move itself. Having said that, I agree with you. I too appreciate a game where it is possible to display one's coup d'oeil in being able to creatively combine the agreed game rules at the table to solve the situation the charater is facing.

I guess in design terms for boardgames I like the Eurogames (German-stlye board games) where the rules can be quickly learnt but there is depth in strategy and tactics. I think I'm even going to say that D&D /5e should be Eurogamelike.​
 

System mastery is a terrible goal. I'm not sure tactical system mastery is any more defensable than the strategic system mastery of 3e.

I don't mind tactics on the level 4e combat has, but taking it to the degree of a eurogame is a recipie for a lot of people getting to do less, enjoy less, once again.
 
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System mastery is a terrible goal. I'm not sure tactical system mastery is any more defensable than the strategic system mastery of 3e.

I don't mind tactics on the level 4e combat has, but taking it to the degree of a eurogame is a recipie for a lot of people getting to do less, enjoy less, once again.

Tactical system mastery vs stategic system mastery is an excellent precis of what I was trying to say before in my summary of two stlyes of gamist play.

YMMV on Eurogames but I would say they tend not to exclude players from full involvement in the game. I (too?) don't appreciate board games that have lots of downtime for players while the active players work out their move. However, this also seems to be a criticism of contemporary D&D combats.
 


The coup d'oeil is the abilty to see the decisive play rather than the move itself. Having said that, I agree with you. I too appreciate a game where it is possible to display one's coup d'oeil in being able to creatively combine the agreed game rules at the table to solve the situation the charater is facing.


But let us consider what makes this "being able to creatively combine" possible. To a large extent it is the common currency of terminology and mechanics which lets different parts of the system 'talk' to each other. In other words if skills and combat use d20s in the same way as a basic resolution mechanic, then you can for instance use a skill check to push a rock down a slope onto an enemy and it works.

Now, modularity doesn't at all preclude that, but I think some people in the last few posts have lost sight of its sheer value.

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]

This is where my concern arises is in the common currency of the game. Not only do different parts of the game need to interact easily, but the terms on which they do so need to be known and consistent. When you have qualitatively different sets of resolution mechanics and a module developer can't know for instance how combat is going to work in the game his module will be used in then how does that work? Systems that are qualitatively different will at the very least create different values for different things. This is doubly true when the parts aren't balanced (quantitative differences). You see this already a bit with 4e and the different scaling of skills vs attacks. Imagine how much more of these difficulties exist when there isn't a fixed way to quantify a skill check or an attack roll. Even if they all use the same d20 mechanic (and suggestions that they might not are frankly anathema to me) they also need to agree that a '15' means the same thing under the same circumstances or you'll have situations like "bull rush becomes worthless at high levels".

As for my equating of combat with gamism and exploration with narrative... I think the problem here is the ugly kludge of GNS terminology (which you really don't want me to get started on, ugh). There are different 'activity focuses', which don't really have anything to do with what GNS is trying to convey. Combat can be more centered around using mechanics in creative ways, while exploration could be more focused on the interactions between in-game resources. In combat you might think in terms of using the rules provisions for gaining an advantage over your opponent. In an exploration type activity you might consider using story resources for a more strategic advantage, which isn't likely to be modeled by a specific rule. Remember too the types of player interests, these are orthogonal to anything that GNS is talking about too. I don't have a problem with this. Some people seem determined to have each activity focus be approached in the same way, and I don't think that's needed. In fact 4e seems somewhat uninterested in that kind of rigidity. It seems quite happy to have the focus in combat be very mechanical and somewhat gamist, but leaving other activities to much looser generalized approaches. That forms a type of expectation of design influence on play that can't hold when different modules don't have a knowable sort of approach. Detailed rules for feeding your PC don't make sense in the context of an overall system where travel is modeled by high level SCs.

I don't really know how you deal with this kind of thing in a BW game. I think being able to use whichever subsystem you want on a case-by-case basis at least means you get to think ahead of time about what types of factors are likely to play a part in a given combat for instance and pick a system that deals with that on the level of abstraction it deserves. At least if there are going to be factors which are important that will say only come out in a tactical resolution you might pick that system instead of the 'fast and dirty' system that won't really model those factors. If you are then talking about a game where the resolution systems are fixed for different things to start with that's fine WRT that game, but it becomes pretty hard to create material for the whole system. Is a Roper a tough monster? Well, it relies on a specific tactic to do its thing. It may be tough for one party and easy for another depending on what builds they have and what tactics they use. None of that detail is likely to be captured using a combat module that doesn't bother with modeling tactics in a detailed way. Things have different values under different mechanics. I don't know how you have a really coherent system that way.
 

But finally, the net effect of all of this is that everyone at the table has to play at the same level of complexity. If the Fighter gets "Combat Maneuvers", the Wizard has to deal with "Specialist Schools", or some equivalent. This means that there can be no concept of the "beginner class" for new players (or just those who don't want to play with all the bells-and-whistles). Anyone playing a simpler character is automatically going to be behind in the power curve.

What if basic characters get bonuses to attacks, damage and skills which can be traded for complexity?

So, you could play a basic fighter with a complex one, because the basic one is getting +5 to hit, damage and certain (appropriate) skills to compensate for the complex fighter's enhanced powers.

And you could split the difference as well. Maybe a medium-complex fighter keeps +2 or 3 to hit/damage/skills, and trades the rest of that bonus for features that the player wants.
 
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However, interestingly, this seems to actively give the DM back more power to say no, we're not using those rules

I know I'm late to the thread, but this particular line of discussion has always puzzled me. I've never seen anything saying that a DM can't excise something from his game. I mean, I've played AD&D, 2Ed and 3.X games in which basic classes (typically Paladins), races (typically half-races) and other features have been disallowed.

Its like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, guys: you've always had the power to say no- just click your heels together and say "That rule's not in my game. That rule's not in my game. That rule's not in my game."
 
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I know I'm late to the thread, but this particular line of discussion has always puzzled me. I've never seen anything saying that a DM can't excise something from his game. I mean, I've played AD&D, 2Ed and 3.X games in which basic classes (typically Paladins), races (typically half-races) and other features have been disallowed.

Its like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, guys: you've always had the power to say no- just click your heels together and say "That rule's not in my game. That rule's not in my game. That rule's not in my game."

Yep. Even in the front part of the 3.5 PHB, it tells players to run their character idea by the DM, as the DM may not allow all Races or Classes from the handbook.

There were many adventures/campaigns where I (or another DM in the group) said "Ok, an all human campain", or "all dwarves". In 2nd edition we had a Bardic Campaign.

R
 

I know I'm late to the thread, but this particular line of discussion has always puzzled me. I've never seen anything saying that a DM can't excise something from his game. I mean, I've played AD&D, 2Ed and 3.X games in which basic classes (typically Paladins), races (typically half-races) and other features have been disallowed.

Its like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, guys: you've always had the power to say no- just click your heels together and say "That rule's not in my game. That rule's not in my game. That rule's not in my game."

It's always been there, it's just a question of standard practice. With 4e, the character builder and WotC's practice of making everything "core" are both strong reasons to run games with everything in them. A "pick and choose" system encourages DMs to think about what they want in their game.

None of this is going to change what experienced GMs do with their games, but it has a big impact on newer folks who are developing their GM style. They look to cues in the rulebooks to figure out "what's right", even if there are many possible "right" choices.

-KS
 

Not only do different parts of the game need to interact easily, but the terms on which they do so need to be known and consistent. When you have qualitatively different sets of resolution mechanics and a module developer can't know for instance how combat is going to work in the game his module will be used in then how does that work?
The two games that I know that have a simple contest/complex contest mechanic that are meant to be used in tandem (depending on the table's preferences as to how much detail is warranted) are BW and HW/Q. I imagine there are other games like this too.

In both these games, the character build rules yield featurs/attributes/abilities/whatever that can be used in either simple or complex checks. This is a bit like 4e's skills - these can be used for a skill check, or a skill challenge; and a bit like 4e's attack bonuses - these can used both to attack a minion, or to attack a normal monster. If we think more about the 4e example, we also note that many powers do variable damage and/or inflict effects on a hit - if all the combat was against minions, this would be wasted rules text. So the existence of this rules text creates obvious pressure to have some combats against non-minions (of course, pressure for that comes from other places as well!). HW/Q and BW don't tend to have this sort of stuff - PC abilities/resources that can only be used in complex challenges.

The promise of those two systems is that, as far as prospects for success go, it shouldn't matter whether you use a simple or a complex resolution mechanic, and as far as choosing a mechanic is concerned, it shouldn't matter which PC is brought to the table. The choice should be driven only by considerations of pacing/player buy-in/etc. In practice, I assume that the odds of various outcomes are affected by choice of resolution mechanic - apart from anything else, I'd expect going for multiple die rolls over one die roll to reduce the swinginess somewhat. But the mathematical comparison between simple and complex is very involved and I haven't done it. I don't know, but I suspect, that the designers have relied more on playtesting than on maths to achieve a sense of "balance" or "equality" between simple and complex mechanics. (Notoriously, 4e is still grappling with this issue in its ongoing revision of DC numbers, skill challenge 'advantages', guidelines on what DC to use in what sort of challenge involving what sort of PC, etc.)

Systems that are qualitatively different will at the very least create different values for different things.
I'm not sure what you have in mind here, so am not sure if I agree. I've tried to explain how in HW/Q and BW, the qualitively different complex resolution mechanicsm aren't meant to make a given score in a given attribute more or less significant in one version of resolution than the other.


You see this already a bit with 4e and the different scaling of skills vs attacks.

<snip>

Even if they all use the same d20 mechanic (and suggestions that they might not are frankly anathema to me) they also need to agree that a '15' means the same thing under the same circumstances or you'll have situations like "bull rush becomes worthless at high levels".
This is just a flaw in design. For modules to work in the way Mearls is talking about, I think this just has to be corrected. (Before the brawler fighter was published, or the improved grappling feat, I had implemented a house rule that grabs, bull rushes etc get a +2/+4 bonus at paragon/epic tier.)

As for my equating of combat with gamism and exploration with narrative

<snip>

Combat can be more centered around using mechanics in creative ways, while exploration could be more focused on the interactions between in-game resources. In combat you might think in terms of using the rules provisions for gaining an advantage over your opponent. In an exploration type activity you might consider using story resources for a more strategic advantage, which isn't likely to be modeled by a specific rule.

<snip>

Some people seem determined to have each activity focus be approached in the same way, and I don't think that's needed. In fact 4e seems somewhat uninterested in that kind of rigidity. It seems quite happy to have the focus in combat be very mechanical and somewhat gamist, but leaving other activities to much looser generalized approaches. That forms a type of expectation of design influence on play that can't hold when different modules don't have a knowable sort of approach. Detailed rules for feeding your PC don't make sense in the context of an overall system where travel is modeled by high level SCs.
I don't know if I follow all of this, but I think I follow at least some of it.

The bit about "approach" and "PC food rules" seems right to me. It's going to be hard to have a good, coherent game in which it is meant to be viable to treat rations and other resources both in a very abstract, "test your resource attribute" sort of way, but also in a "did you remember to buy enough food while you were in town" sort of way. The second approach, for example, requires fewer attributes on the PC sheet (no "resources" attribute) but brings a particular element of D&D play that's always been very central - gp - into the equation. How is all this to be balanced and reconciled? Dunno.

The earlier paragraph, about combat vs exploration, is a bit more hazy to me. But why, in exploration, can't I use rules provisions to get an advantage (eg I use a charge of my Wand of Metal Detection or take a swig of my Treasure Finding Potion). And in combat why can't I draw on my story resources - like using my dedication to Bahamut to help me fight this cleric of Bane, or - to be even more metagamey - using my earlier pleasant conversation with the captain of the guard to bring it about that he turns up to help me out when I'm being overwhelmed by a couple of assassins in a dark alley (The Riddle of Steel allows the first sort of "story resource", andh HeroWars/Quest both sorts of "story resources", to figure into combat).

I don't really know how you deal with this kind of thing in a BW game.
I've tried to describe above. I'm not drawing on a lot of play experience with BW, though - I mostly rely on it to give me guidance on how to run my 4e game! - so it would be interesting for someone else with more experience to chime in.

I think being able to use whichever subsystem you want on a case-by-case basis at least means you get to think ahead of time about what types of factors are likely to play a part in a given combat for instance and pick a system that deals with that on the level of abstraction it deserves. At least if there are going to be factors which are important that will say only come out in a tactical resolution you might pick that system instead of the 'fast and dirty' system that won't really model those factors. If you are then talking about a game where the resolution systems are fixed for different things to start with that's fine WRT that game, but it becomes pretty hard to create material for the whole system. Is a Roper a tough monster? Well, it relies on a specific tactic to do its thing. It may be tough for one party and easy for another depending on what builds they have and what tactics they use. None of that detail is likely to be captured using a combat module that doesn't bother with modeling tactics in a detailed way. Things have different values under different mechanics. I don't know how you have a really coherent system that way.
For these sorts of cases - like "will the muddy ground factor into the fight" or "will they have a special advantage against a Roper because they've got a lot of bottles of spirits and really good Escape checks" - I think you're right. A game like HW/Q relies on these sorts of tactical issues not factoring into resolution in the same way as in D&D - rather - to the extent that they are relevant at all - they generally provide augments, and augments can be applied in either simple or complex contests.

In BW, I think that that sort of detail is going to get lost if you go for simple rather than complex resolution - just as damage rolls and effects, in 4e, get lost if all you're fighting is minions. I think the BW attitude to this is the same as the 4e attitude to fights with minions - you win some, you lose some, it will all come out in the wash! The less plausible, and the more like desperate handwaving, that that seems, the less viable the "modules" idea will look, I think.

Another game I know of that has modules, and uses them in what seems to be Mearls' envisaged way - ie choosing by campaign rather than from situation to situation - is HARP. It has three or four (maybe more?) combat mechanics - the core rules, the Martial Power rules (which are like a more nuanced version of the core rules), Hack and Slash (which makes the rules a bit closer to classic Rolemaster), and another mechanic based on the Rolemaster Express combat system. And some people just plug in the classic Rolemaster mechanics.

This is mostly viable as far as character build is concerned, because all the mechanics look for the same numbers as relevant inputs - how much attack bonus, how much defence bonus, etc. (Although even here, there are a few issues - different modules make weapon choice, or armour choice, matter a bit more or a bit less). And the outputs are also described in the same way across all the systems - concussion hits delivered plus individuated injuries and other conditions inflicted. (Here, again, though, there are some minor implications for healing rules.) But the actual effect in play of the different modules is fairly different - Hack and Slash, and core Rolemaster, are swingier than core HARP, for example, because they make it easier to kill on a typical attack. (So Hack and Slash is often suggested as an antidote to combat grind in HARP.)

Personally, I would expect Mearls' modules - if they move from hypothetical to actual - to look more like HARP than like BW. Which gives rise to the "fracturing" concern that I voiced upthread (as did others - including you?).
 

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